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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Radical Feminism

184 replies

Grennie · 08/11/2013 13:07

I see so many myths about radical feminism. So what does radical feminism mean to you?

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rosabud · 09/11/2013 20:55

Patriarchal heteronormativity ....what a load of complete psychobabble.

Really? Ironically, before I got to Brenslo's post, I was thinking this:

Patriarchal heteronormativity:

  1. Here is a term I have never heard of before - yet here I am sitting in my home, on a Saturday night, reading a website aimed at Mums sharing stuff about their everyday experiences (I know - I can't help being a little rock and roll on a Saturday night Smile ), and I have come across a term which seems a bit odd, a bit weird, a bit, you know, out there, but, hey, read on.....

  2. Hmm, really interesting explanation of what this means. Need to think about that......might have to get outside my comfort zone to consider it.......enjoying being challenged - after all, I could be watching Strictly or whatever else is on telly on a Saturday night these days......

  3. I love the internet and I love this board, the way it opens up my world from my own front room on a Saturday night...

  4. Oh what a shame, one poster is so closed minded that s/he is just going to dismiss it as complete psychobabble. Perhaps s/he should just go and watch X Factor instead.......

Brenslo · 09/11/2013 20:20

Patriarchal heteronormativity ....what a load of complete psychobabble.

My heterosexuality is nothing to do with socialisation or environmental patriarchal stereotyping. It's in the core of my being. I'm straight in the same way I'm female, white, left handed etc. I just am, always was, always will be. I was excited by boys from when I was about 5 from memory. Maybe earlier. I knew what I wanted even before I knew what I was going to do with it!

SauceForTheGander · 09/11/2013 15:39

This is an interesting thread. I was recently described as rad fem because I was wearing a No more page 3 t shirt. I thought that was hilarious and took it as a compliment, though I'm not sure it was meant as a one. It's in the eye of the beholder. To some I sound radical and extreme. To others my views don't go far enough. Certainly political feminists would see me as conformist.

What is alarming is how very basic ideas of "don't sexually objectify women in the media" / don't gender define children's toys are considered radical.

Beachcomber · 09/11/2013 15:10

Yes, exactly FairPhyllis.

I think people tend to think about lesbianism as being the female quivalent to male homosexuality (because of course we think in male terms with male being the benchmark for everything else) and therefore people have an idea of lesbianism which is not the actual female experience, particularly the political aspect.

Again Adrienne Rich is good on this and when you read her work, the concept of the spectrum of lesbianism makes perfect sense.

For example women's refuges would be considered an example of political lesbianism in action - women only spaces designed to look after the best interests of women and children and to protect them from male violence. There doesn't have to be an erotic or sexual element. Seen like that, political lesbianism becomes immensely powerful for women (all the more reason for it to painted as deviant bonkers sexual lying....).

From the Rich link I gave above:

Lesbians have historically been deprived of a political existence through "inclusion" as female versions of male homosexuality. To equate lesbian existence with male homosexuality because each is stigmatized is to deny and erase female reality once again To separate those women stigmatized as "homosexual" or "gay" from the complex continuum of female resistance to enslavement, and attach them to a male pattern, is to falsify our history Part of the history of lesbian existence is, obviously, to be found where lesbians, lacking a coherent female community, have shared a kind of social life and common cause with homosexual men But this has to be seen against the differences women's lack of economic and cultural privilege relative to men; qualitative differences in female and male relationships, for example, the prevalence of anonymous sex and the justification of pederasty among male homosexuals, the pronounced ageism in male homosexual standards of sexual attractiveness, and so forth In defining and describing lesbian existence I would hope to move toward a dissociation of lesbian from male homosexual values and allegiances I perceive the lesbian experience as being, like motherhood, a profoundly female experience, with particular oppressions, meanings, and potentialities we cannot comprehend as long as we simply bracket it with other sexually stigmatized existences just as the term parenting serves to conceal the particular and significant reality of being a parent who is actually a mother, the term gay serves the purpose of blurring the very outlines we need to discern, which are of crucial value for feminism and for the freedom of women as a group.

FairPhyllis · 09/11/2013 12:24

I think I've also seen 'political lesbianism' being talked about in a way that simply meant abstaining from intimate relationships with men, without reference to whether you then form sexual relationships with other women. Which would not be a bonkers thing to choose given the compromises, wifework etc in most heterosexual relationships.

Beachcomber · 09/11/2013 10:53

And it isn't about not being a "traitor to the cause". Or denying one's sexuality. It is about looking the status quo and violence against women and the exploitation of women's work and reproductive capacities square in the face and realising that it is possible to refuse to live as you have been told you must.

I was talking to a group of women the other day about how if I were not to be with my DH (for reasons of divorce, death, etc), that I didn't think I would bother to be in an intimate relationship with a man again. We had a really interesting discussion about the advantages of women living without a man in their lives and there was much agreement about how interesting it could be to step out of prescribed heteronormativity. These were women in their 40s who were all mothers and had lived as straight all their lives. None of them identify as radical feminists (I'm not sure they even know what radical feminism is) and yet here we were discussing a revolutionary radical feminist concept and finding much to agree with it. We never mentioned the words lesbian, political, feminist or separatism - yet that was what we were discussing. We just weren't calling it that.

A lot of women's real life lived experiences show political lesbianism to not be quite so "out there" as you might think.

Beachcomber · 09/11/2013 10:31

Patriarchal heteronormativity socializes people to not examine their individual sexuality either as to how they experience intimacy, or, as to how they form relationships. This socialization process could be analysed as a lie, a political structure, and certainly a pillar of female oppression.

We start socializing little girls from the minute they are born that what they want from life is a relationship with a man and children ( the concept explored by Rich of the "institution of motherhood").

Political lesbianism challenges that socialization process - which seems very sensible to me and not bonkers at all. To NOT question it seems crazy to me.

curlew · 09/11/2013 10:17

When I was a young woman, "political lesbianism" was definitely a thing. I do sometimes think that young women nowadays have no idea how radical an idea it was in the 70s for women to live fulfilled lives separate from men. It's pretty radical now!

I would love every woman under 30 to read The Women's Room. Dated, but eye opening.

Beachcomber · 09/11/2013 10:09

The political lesbianism concept probably does seem bonkers to many people - probably because we are so used to thinking about things in terms of patriarchal heteronormativity.

Political lesbianism is about examining compulsory heterosexuality and exploring an alternative. IMO it is a lot like feminist objections to mandatory PIV - another notion that seems a bit bonkers when you first encounter it, but which makes a whole lot of sense when you think outside of standard patriarchal framing of the subject.

Political lesbianism is about women refusing to do wifework and investing their time and energy in furthering the endeavours of women. It is actually a revolutionary concept if you think about it.

Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence Adrienne Rich

Of course it may not be for everyone, but I think dismissing it as bonkers comes from patriarchal socialization.

MooncupGoddess · 09/11/2013 09:52

There is a 21st-century view that the vast majority of people slot neatly into straight or gay boxes, with a small handful of bisexuals. I don't agree with this view myself, since it ignores the vast range of sexualities and attitudes to sexuality in recorded human history.

scallopsrmissingAnyFucker · 09/11/2013 09:24

That last sentence should really say So it isn't lying about your sexuality if your sexuality is more fluid I.e. it isn't innate.

scallopsrmissingAnyFucker · 09/11/2013 09:20

Brenslo, political lesbians believe that sexuality is a social construct, like gender. So it isn't lying about sexuality if you believe your sexuality to be fluid.

Brenslo · 09/11/2013 08:43

So it's true. There are women out there, a small number maybe, who are political lesbians, but are actually straight. They live the lesbian lifestyle to avoid being "traitors to the cause", but at their core, they are heterosexual.

I'm sorry if this upsets anyone's sensitivities, but that's just bonkers. And probably a short cut to mental health issues in the future.

Never live a lie about your sexuality.

Grennie · 09/11/2013 00:29

Mooncup, I have talked to a few women who do. But yes seems to be a very minority position

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curlew · 09/11/2013 00:16

Queer politics/theory is a different use of the word to "queer" as a derogatory term.

MooncupGoddess · 09/11/2013 00:06

I am very aware of the existence of political lesbianism, and quite understand that some radical feminists see sexual relationships with men as contrary to their core values. But are there really radical feminists who believe ALL women should abjure sex with men? It must be a position held by a tiny minority at most.

EarthMither · 08/11/2013 23:38

"Queer" means "queer theory" in the context of this discussion, SM

scottishmummy · 08/11/2013 23:35

Queer of course being a derogatory term,latterly adopted by some in a reclaim way

Grennie · 08/11/2013 23:31

scottishmummy - No we mean that queer politics changed what liberal feminism used to mean.

I don't care about anyone disagreeing.

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EarthMither · 08/11/2013 23:30

The idea of 'political lesbianism' is neither a myth nor a joke, although it's not something every woman can embrace as sexual attraction is such a personal thing for each individual. There's an interesting piece on the emergence of lesbianism as a political (and personal) choice here

Grennie · 08/11/2013 23:30

Moocup, some do actually think that all women should be lesbians or at least not in relationships with men. But it is a minority view.

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scottishmummy · 08/11/2013 23:28

Colonised?do you mean someone got temerity to disagree

Brenslo · 08/11/2013 23:24

OK Mooncupgodess. I thought they were serious! Never realised it was a joke. Must be losing the plot in my dotage!

MooncupGoddess · 08/11/2013 23:22

I don't think anyone actually believes that all women should be lesbians, Brenslo. It's a myth.

Grennie · 08/11/2013 23:09

Beach, I totally agree. Liberal feminism has been colonised by queer politics. Much to the detriment of feminism.

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