Radical Feminism

I once read that the majority of bisexual women end up in relationships with men, and the majority of bisexual men also end up in relationships with men.

I wonder if that's driven by fertility?

Well of course the woman I came across (who was in a happy lesbian relationship for 24 years and is now dating men) would be held up by those christians as proof that homosexuality is curable.

She's also proof of course, that heterosexuality is curable, because if it can happen that way round it can happen the other. But I don't suppose they'd consider that angle.

BBE, I agree with you to an extent. I don't care what people are. I think it's a shame when people feel forced into a choice that isn't their true desire, be it a het woman living as a lesbian due to her feminist position, or a gay man marrying because it's "the done thing".

But I've always opposed Christian bigots on 2 fronts, firstly that there's no problem in being gay anyway, and secondly because it isn't changeable or curable.

But you have to remember that the gay people in question are Christian, which is why they fall under the influence of these bigots. If it's true that they can be "cured" of their homosexuality, and due to their religion, they want to be cured, then it's fair enough.

Personally, I don't think sexuality is fluid or changeable. You are what you are. You were born that way. I think believing you can change and going thru treatment to change is not going to end happily, and is not good for your mental health.

It only gives legitimacy to those bigots, if you consider homosexuality and lesbianism to be undesirable.

I personally couldn't give a toss if someone is a lesbian because she chose it as a political choice, as a lifestyle choice or because she was born that way - I don't think being "born that way" is a particularly convincing argument tbh, it strikes me as being a bit begging and diffident. "I was born that way so can't help it, so please accept me" strikes me as starting from the premise that society has the right to object to your sexual orientation if you've actively chosen it rather than had no choice in the matter. AFAIC my starting point would be fuck it, it's irrelevant if your sexuality is a lifestyle choice or no choice at all, Christian bigots can fuck off.

I think sexuality is on a continuum and some people are more fixed in one place than others. I came across someone recently who had a lesbian relationship for years, lived with someone for 24 years with whom she split up a couple of years ago and has just taken up with a man for the first time since she was a teenager. She said that she probably wouldn't bother with any lesbian relationships ever again as she only ever fancied her lesbian partner, but no other women, whereas actually she fancies quite a few men now that she's got into this heterosexuality lark. I thought that was quite interesting, how someone's sexuality can adapt to a specific person they love.

If we accept that sexuality isn't fixed at birth but has fluidity and can be influenced by conditioning, (I'm not convinced), doesn't that give a degree of legitimacy to Christians who talk about "curing homosexuality" and who claim that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice that can be altered.

Because I've never given that nonsense the time of day!

Well I guess that's one way to see it Grennie. Perhaps we need another term for women who have had het experiences and lived heteronormativity who have then gone on to no longer want het sexuality and heteronormativity and live more female focused lives.

I think it is about accepting that sexual desire is not the same thing to everybody and that socialization is a major influencing factor.

That is not to deny that many people experience their sexuality as innate. I don't think everybody does though.

I understand that many lesbians whose lesbianism is an innate sexual orientation take issue with political lesbianism and see it as an appropriation. I don't think the two need to compete or be in conflict with each other however. I'm a believer in lesbianism as a spectrum but I know and accept that many women disagree with me vehemently on that.

This article is interesting, the comments are worth a read too. I think there is a general tendency to view lesbianism through a male perspective prism of what sexuality and love are and women should be allowed to step out of that and develop our own definitions and identifies, and IMO, that is what political lesbianism is about.

anntagonist.wordpress.com/2013/03/17/lesbian-is-political-whether-it-is-or-not/

Hmm yes you do get the argument that political lesbianism somehow diminishes or erases "non choice" / "born that way" lesbianism but I personally don't believe that you can't have both as sexuality is more fluid than most of us have been conditioned into believing (especially men actually - believing that all gay men are born gay is reassuring to them if for example they have occasional gay feelings- as being male homosexual is seen as more taboo in patriarchy). I'm not denying that there are people who have never felt attracted to the opposite sex their whole life though.

Personally I feel strongly that if I was not with my male DP, I would choose to be with a woman or be single rather than try to navigate a compromise with a man who at the core has been raised to consider himself superior to women.

GoshAnneGorilla Sat 09-Nov-13 23:58:07
I generally believe that sexuality isn't a choice and for women to deny their sexual desires in the service of an ideology (however well-intentioned) doesn't sound like liberation to me.

100% this. Nail hit very firmly on head!

Grennie - good point! I have heard that mentioned too.

I think feminism absolutely needs to be a broad church, because women are such a diverse group of people, we need to fight in lots of different ways and areas to make progress.

So I respect radical and liberal feminism and think we need them and the other types of feminisms, I don't hold one type of feminism to be superior to others.

With regards to political lesbianism, I see why some women might embrace that as a way forward and I think it is important to question heteromormativity.

but

I generally believe that sexuality isn't a choice and for women to deny their sexual desires in the service of an ideology (however well-intentioned) doesn't sound like liberation to me.

I was massively disappointed when I read The Women's Room, strapline "This book will change your life!". But I suspect I didn't have the life experience to fully understand it, I was a Spare Rib reading teenager at the time. I wonder if I still have it?

I've just bought it too :)

You're welcome bunnylion.

The Women's Room is ace.

Well that's jolly nice for you Brenslo. No need to dismiss other women's experiences and politics though surely?

Are you contesting that lesbianism has been marginalized throughout patriarchal history?!

"I think people tend to think about lesbianism as being the female quivalent to male homosexuality (because of course we think in male terms with male being the benchmark for everything else) [...] There doesn't have to be an erotic or sexual element."

Thanks beach here's yet another lightbulb moment for me on the FWR forum.

curlew thank you too, I'm under 30 and have just Amazoned "The Woman's Room".