Radical Feminism

I am astonished at the sweeping generalisation passed off here.opinion traded as fact
Women constantly try measure themselves against men sexuality
I don't like being pigeonholed by men,women are this,and that.equally i don't like women doing it

This is probably not going to go down well, but I can't help thinking the patriarchy is responsible for enough rubbish without pinning the blame on it for women's overwhelming heterosexuality. That's down to millions of years of evolution.

Most people are heterosexual. Which is just as well if the species is to prosper.

I wonder how they measured men's arousal

Maybe the secretions were nothing to do with arousal and everything to do with making the whole measurement thing more comfortable!

Grennie: I'm aware of that research.

They also found that women were getting physically aroused by men with women, women with women, men with men and bonobos with bonobos. This was regardless of their declared sexual orientation.

Women have just been socialised into a fear of their own sexuality, which is horrible, and a resentment of men's easier sexual growth, which is sad.

That's really interesting Grennie. Although part of me is offering thanks that I don't have to do studies where I invite people to have something shoved up their fanjo to measure their vaginal secretions ...

I think women are socialised to accept the institutions of heterosexuality (marriage, being in a relationship with a man is better than being alone etc.) but I am not sure that we are socialised to find men physically attractive in the way that we are for women. But then we're not supposed to actually enjoy sex, are we, so that's OK then ...

"I have often wondered whether the apparent greater fluidity of women's sexuality is at least something to do with the way we are conditioned to look at women's bodies under patriarchy"

V interesting point, Phyllis, I had never thought of this.

I have never felt I have an intrinsic sexuality... I'm sure my 'vaguely heterosexual' orientation is the result of social conditioning. I know I'm in a minority though.

I agree that heterosexuality is normalized. In the same way people are conditioned. I am sure there are people who supress it. But I do not think you can change who you are attracted to. Or who you are. But society can force you to hide it.

I can understand the appeal of the simplistic 'born that way' view of sexuality - not least because it makes it easier to describe homophobia as an analog of racism - but I think sexuality is probably formed from a complex combination of multiple factors like genetics, hormone exposure and experiences in early childhood. And no, this doesn't legitimise people who say they can cure homosexuality, because all the evidence so far suggests that however your sexuality is formed, it's basically impossible to change what turns you on. Otherwise we'd be able to cure true paedophiles.

I have often wondered whether the apparent greater fluidity of women's sexuality is at least something to do with the way we are conditioned to look at women's bodies under patriarchy - we are presented with women's-bodies-as-desirable-objects ALL the fricking time, and I wonder if a lifetime of that conditioning does play some part in some women identifying as bi or lesbian. I don't see how you can rule that out, anyway.

Can I also just say - I have never, ever seen any Christian organisation in the UK claim that they can 'cure' homosexuality. It sounds to me like you are describing something you have seen on TV in a doc about the US.

Orlando Wolf, not just in Russia. I think it's an argument trotted out over here too, that kids can "catch gayness" from the same sex couple bringing them up.

Worth remembering that the vast majority of gay men and women had heterosexual parents!! And heterosexual siblings. If you can't catch gayness, then you can't catch heterosexuality, from the patriarchy or anyone else.

What do you mean by educated? In Russia, there are issues with gay parents because some people think that might promote homosexuality. Do you think children can be educated because that is a slippery slope. They can pretend to fit in as people have done but I don't think you can teach it.

I guess I do think that. We are born gay, straight, or bi. With most being straight.

In years to come, it will be interesting to see how the daughters of lesbian couples turn out. My guess is that the vast majority will be straight.

Grennie, it could be actual heterosexuality in action.

A woman may enjoy the company of other women over men, but not in the bedroom, where only a man will do. Because she is what she is, straight. No because of heteronormativity, or the patriarchy, but just because that's what she wants.

Split I feel the same way about men

Mmnnnn...not sure about that Grennie. It seems more and more women are instigating divorce or choosing to not be with men, and many of them instead want to be with women. I think if we consider power dynamics anyway, of those men who DO think about women as second class (not sure many of them do TBH) then many of them would find this desirable....in that THEY would be the powerful one in the relationship.

You could also question why women (or men for that matter) would want to be with men when so many of them are downright horrible and commit most violence and most crimes. But you can't help who you connect with. Like me....I FAR prefer women's company to men's (out of the people I have known) and dislike/distrust men as a class...yet I LOVE my husband and he is my best friend.

Hadn't thought of that, Grennie.