Why would you be proud to be married?

I was careful not to conflate the ritual and the institution in my post, I have different issues with both.

Like I said, I do not have a personal issue with people who are fans of traditional marriage and I understand that all of us will try to find an answer to those dilemmas through making choices based on our own subjective views of what they find valuable.

However, at risk of stating the obvious, I think the larger frameworks within we all have to function to form a part of society are worth exploring, since they are still broadly patriarchal even if you personally do not see them as such. You may disagree with me, but there is a reason why women only own 1% of the world's wealth and, as such, are still in this day and age more likely to be a property than own one. Marriage is certainly part of that.

My wedding day WAS the best day of my life.

I didn't expect it to be, but it was just totally brilliant.

A beautiful sunny day with all my friends having a big party and drinking champagne. What was not to like about that?

The second best day was at Glastonbury.

People often say the days of their children's birth were the best. But having my belly sliced open with a knife and having a catheter are just not as much fun as dancing for hours or wandering around a field on mushrooms.

Weddings and marriages are different though. And traditional weddings are very weird affairs. The number of novelties introduced as traditions seem to grow every year.

It's the same whenever the whole Mrs/Miss/Ms topic comes up - lots of people saying they use Mrs because they're proud of being married.

I don't understand it myself. I'm married, but for legal/practical reasons. I'm not proud of being married at all. And I use Ms as a title. Some relationships are good, some are bad, IME whether the couple are married or not is irrelevant. Preening that you're married is pointless - you could be married and in a totally shit relationship.

I do think it really lies with the whole "you're not a real woman until married and therefore validated by a man" tradition. Particularly since women only get to have an adult title, ie Mrs, when married, and before that have the title of a child, ie, Miss.

So while I recognise that the institution of marriage has moved on from it's patriarchal roots of ownership of women, and I don't have any issue with marriage as a legal contract, I don't see it as any reason to be proud.

You choose your own wedding and you can have what you like!
It has nothing to do with the marriage, you can pop down to the registry office in your lunch break and find a couple of witnesses if you want.

Well, a quick google of the phrase 'feminist analysis of marriage' throws up just over 16 million hits, so clearly a few people thought it worthy of exploration beyond their own experiences of their wedding.

I agree with youngblowfish in principle. Still got married in white, waling down aisle etc. Tried to speak at my own wedding but got overcome with emotion yadda yadda. Was a good day, and not one I've since regretted, but NOT the best frigging day of my life.

youngblowfish I am also proud to be a mother, even though being one is probably the worst thing I could have done for my career, sense of self, financial stability etc etc.

And please don't assume that everyone had a traditional wedding where only men speak and the bride is given away as a chattel from one man to another. In any case, a wedding is not the same as a marriage.

'Marriage was designed as a patriarchial institution, in which women were owned and controlled by men.'

It's not now though.

'But the working at it trope, keeps a lot of women in bad marriages.'

And men.

"Single women are sometimes left out of married people's plans though"

I find the opposite. Although I'm not married, DP has lots of couple friends but it's those with young DC that are often left out since one partner often has to "babysit". Since I've had DC I'm usually at home with them whilst he goes out socialising with them or attends weddings.

I don't mind as I'm not particularly sociable and it gives me a good excuse to say home but if you were and couldn't get a babysitter easily I could imagine you could feel very left out.

But what does it mean exactly? That you think you've done well. I can understand when there is some sort of qualification ie you've weathered storms and are good to each other. But marriage in itself. Even bad ones? Nobody would be proud of being in a bad marriage.

So, I can understand feeling proud of having a good strong relationship with a significant other. But not just marriage as an inherently good state.

Surely when people say I'm proud to be married: I've been married for 20 years, I'm proud of my husband, I'm proud of.... etc etc, they mean I'm proud of MY marriage, I'm proud of MY personal situation. This is different to saying I'm proud to have achieved the act of marriage in itself. Surely one can be proud to have created something (a loving relationship, perhaps with some effort), but to be proud of simply jumping a legal hurdle/bagging a man, would be misplaced.

Not sure if I've explained that very clearly

Flora, I agree with most of your 21:00 post, except I would say that most of the married men I know would absolutely say that they were proud to be married. I genuinely don't think it is something limited to women, even if popular culture and the bloody wedding industry would have us believe different.

It's a shame this thread has gone down the choosey-choice / don't question other people's choices rabbit hole

Patronising much.

Single women are sometimes left out of married people's plans though. I am single (proud to be divorced from a nightmare husband years ago) and I have lots of married friends and friendly acquaintances who do tend to miss me off the list if they are having a dinner party or something. I think sometimes married women can be a bit wary of single women, or (worse) pity us. And no, it's not because they don't' like me-married women want to hang out with me one to one, just not as part of their married people gang.
I have no data here, it's just something I get a sense of, day to day.

I would say that I'm proud to be married to a wonderful man, not of the marriage itself.

How was marriage my own idea? Did I really wake up one day and thought - what I really need is a sexist set-up where I can be part of an institution which used to be and is still used around the world to enslave women for the benefit of men?

As for coercion - mothers are discriminated against on the job market and having a child takes a toll on your earning potential. This economic burden is still shouldered mostly by women, and marriage aims to redress that to a small degree. How is it not socially coercive to say to women: this is what motherhood will do to you, marriage legally offers limited protection. How is that a free choice?

Don't even get me started on the pathetically infantilising ritual itself, where even in a fairly progressive country such as Britain, traditionally only men speak at weddings, leaving the bride mute but pretty in white. I do not mean to offend fans of traditional weddings, but obediently performing my role within a rampant commercialised patriarchal show is not how I envisage the best day of my life.

And everything that plinkyplonk said much more eloquently!

Grennie I completely agree that the notion of women being proud to be married is open to feminist critique. It's a shame this thread has gone down the choosey-choice / don't question other people's choices rabbit hole.

I agree with your last post - I think the issue of pride and shame over failing marriages still keeps women in bad relationships.

Whether or not any individual woman or man feels proud about their relationship or marriage isn't really the point. In our popular discourse, it is women who are said to be proud to be married, proud to be "Mrs", to have bagged a man. Society considers it an achievement for the women and not the men, whose ambitions and energies are expected to go into non-domestic achievements.

In some places and / or cultures, of course marriage is used to subjugate and control women. But I chose to be married. I told DH if he asked my dad for permission to propose I would refuse. My dad didn't "give me away" at our wedding. We have a marriage of equal footing. I am proud that after nearly ten years we are in a stronger place together than we were when we got married, despite life's ups and downs. This isn't completely through luck, we have had to work at it. Same as I am proud of my career - I have had a healthy dose of luck, but I have also worked bloody hard to get where I am now.

I'm yet to see the OP articulate why I shouldn't be proud to be married, in the same way that I am proud of my career.

It's not a civil partnership, it is still, in the eyes of the law a marriage. A non-religious marriage, but still a marriage.

There are differences, most of which are negative (fewer rights for civil partners in recognition abroad, pensions, etc). However, there are also differences like adultery not being a ground for dissolution (though you could use unreasonable behaviour or something along those lines, I forget the term). There are also no legally required vows.

For those who have an issue with the institution of marriage, it's also teh simple fact that a partnership doesn't come with the historical baggage.

We got married in a registry office and it is very much legally a marriage.

Not all of us define our marriage by past definitions Grennie. Calling a different view point to your own as BS isn't really very respectful.

Every day we get the opportunity to define ourselves and what we mean by x, whether that be marriage, relationships etc.

Marriage for the vast majority of women is a choice. Many people get married for the legal protection is brings for both men and women, as well as the religious, spiritual and other commitments it represents to them. Marriage does not have to be anti feminist, it does not have to be detrimental to either party, it does not have to define a persons' role in society, within their relationship or within their family.

I think we should be proud that men and women get to define their marriages how they see fit. Who are we to judge other people's happiness?With each day, month, years, generations the general consensus on marriage will change. We can see that with the potential introduction of gat marriage, the legal definition of marriage is change. So too with our ideas of what a marriage should be, roles etc.

But that change starts with people considering their own views. My grand parent's marriage spanned over 50 years, my aunty's too - they role in their relationship was based on their relative strengths and weaknesses, their personality traits.. not on 'traditional' gender roles. The older generations in my family did not define their marriages by cultural norms, they defined it themselves. And made their marriages work, and they were loved, content, happy and felt achievement in making their marriages work. They even were proud. Who are we to judge what people are proud about?

Is a registry office ceremony not a civil partnership type thing??

In most Continental European countries the legal side of marriage and then the churchy aspect are quite separate.

I suppose it's still a 'marriage'...

Grennie there is not more going on here . I am quietly proud of being married. I am not owned or controlled by my DH. We are very much equals in every way and respect and love each other.
I can't see any feminist issue with my marriage.

I don't agree that single women have a lower social status than married women. That certainly isn't the case with the people I know.

I do think that the historical background to marriage is troublesome for many people. I would like to see those who wish to receive the benefits of the legal protections of marriage without that context have the option of heterosexual civil partnerships. A straightforward ceremony, not lots of legal time with a lawyer that still doesn't quite replicate a lot of the rights.

I also agree that many of the ceremonies of a wedding are troubling. I wish I had resisted my father 'giving me away' more than I did. I told him he wasn't. My husband certainly didn't ask his permission to marry me (I'd have known he wasn't the man for me if he had!!). But he would have been devastated not to walk me down the aisle and I gave in to keep the peace. I find that troubling as a feminist. But we all make sacrifices to avoid hurting people and that was one I made.