AIBU to think that if MN are willing to boycott certain groups on ethical grounds

'The family courts being biased towards women is a myth propogated by mra father's rights organisations.'

That is such a huge, massive, voluminous untruth. Utterly, utterly, utterly wrong. Wrong. Stunningly erroneous.

Suicide services are aimed at both men and women. And the UK Government has run anti suicide campaigns aimed at men. It is not true to say there is no support for men.

Paul Elam is deliberately inflammatory. He has said this over and over again, you are choosing to take what he says literally.

Oh, I see. Feminists just not getting the joke again?

I mean some problems will be linked, some will be two sides of a coin, some will stand alone. People will choose their own issues to address and look in to

'MRA's are naming particular feminists on MN and talking about going after them on MN.'

Right, well I don't know anything about that, but this is an open forum isn't it? I'm certainly not condoning any kind of attacks on MN from other forums.

'Paul Elam has said some stuff in his time - I can't believe even sigmunde defends him. The man who said "if I was on a jury in a rape case, I would vote not guilty no matter what the evidence"'

Paul Elam is deliberately inflammatory. He has said this over and over again, you are choosing to take what he says literally. As someone who regularly reads AVFM, indeed, has read almost ALL the articles, I understand that it is not to be taken literally, as he has stated this many times. Put it this way, as a woman, I would not affiliate myself with a movement that hated and wanted to harm women, think about it.
................................................................................................
"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." -- Andrea Dworkin

"Romance is rape embellished with meaningful looks." Andrea Dworkin in the Philadelphia Inquirer, May 21, 1995..

"Under patriarchy, no woman is safe to live her life, or to love, or to mother children. Under patriarchy, every woman is a victim, past, present, and future. Under patriarchy, every woman's daughter is a victim, past, present, and future. Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman," Andrea Dworkin, Liberty, p.58..

"One can know everything and still be unable to accept the fact that sex and murder are fused in the male consciousness, so that the one without the imminent possibly of the other is unthinkable and impossible." Andrea Dworkin, Letters from a War Zone, p. 21..

..................................................................................

Do I take the above literally? Do you?

Patriarchy is not bollocks, sigmunde. Otherwise, you wouldn't have been traditionally given away by your father on your wedding day, and changed your father's name to your new husband's name. Plus the vast majority of the world's wealth and political power would not be held by men. Plus the majority of housework/childcare would not be left to the women.

The family courts being biased towards women is a myth propogated by mra father's rights organisations. The clue is in the name: father's rights. Not children's rights. The way that the family courts currently work is set up for the best outcome for the children. Currently, 'shared parenting' and a "continuity of care." Ie if the children are currently cared for by a sahp, that will continue, with access for the other parent. The children having a right to see both parents is fundamental to the current system. Believe me, I know - since a convicted paedophile husband of a friend of mine is now dangerously close to getting access to his children.

Sheesh, and there I was thinking we were engaging in debate and polite and reasonable discourse. Why can't we all just get along?

Treen44444 - what do you mean, "it's not a competition"?

Treen44444 - I'm still waiting for you to provide some links to reasonable, middle-of-the-road MRA websites. I've had another Google and I still haven't been able to find any.

I did find this though

Earth, it's not a competition

Suelford, thank you for coming back with examples of some of the issues facing men. Here's my take on the issues you identify:

Homelessness - yes, there are more homeless men than women. However (and from the perspective of someone currently working in Housing), services for homeless people such as hostels are presently tailored almost exclusively towards men to the detriment of homeless women.

Suicide - APartridgeAmongThePigeons addresses this in her post of 16:18:02 above

Violence and rape - the former is predominately perpetrated by men, the latter can only be perpetrated by men as defined by law. As kim147 posted at 18:49:39 above, "Attacking feminism will not stop men committing crimes [or] attacking each other"

Dangerous working conditions - the ruling capitalist class (in which positions of power are held almost overwhelmingly by men) don't give a shit about the safety of working men or working women. Men who care about this issue should join a union - I can personally recommend my union the GMB for its campaigning work in this area, along with UCATT and Unite

Lower educational achievement - I will hold my hands up and say that a) I know boys currently perform less well than girls in education, and b) I don't know why (and yes, I will go away and do some reading about this). But across the board, grown-up men still earn more than women once they've left school/university

Higher criminal punishment - my understanding is that women are convicted of proportionally fewer crimes than men because they commit proportionally fewer crimes

Institutional sexism in DV cases - I'm not sure what you mean by this

Social expectation to be providers/brutes/disposable - this is a good example of how patriarchy harms both women and men

Draft (American) - 61% of American women think the draft should be opened up to include females

I would suggest that all of the above problems which men experience are not generated by women working to exploit a structurally oppressive system.

Right.

'I've asked you here and elsewhere what changes you want to see for men and what issues face men.

Can you answer that question?'

I would like to see a change in the feminist run family courts that puts womens needs ahead of children and fathers. I would like to see a huge shake up of the court system to put children's needs first. This will benefit fathers. If you don't think that men are treated despicably by the courts, then ask yourself how many 'mothers4Justice' groups are there.

I would like to see more 'samaritan type' services for men. Currently men are expected to cope, and a lot of times they don't, given the high suicide rates.

I have a privilege. I can sit next to a child and nobody thinks I'm going to abuse that child. I would like to see the same for men, maybe then they might feel more able to work as teachers and childcare workers. And maybe the bloke who saw my 4 year old DS about to fall from the top of a slide would have actually plucked him to safety rather than looking around frantically until he caught my eye and pointed at DS.

I would like to see more DV shelters for men, as currently there are about 2, and zero funding....to quote (again)...

"If we put across this idea that the abuse of men is as great as the abuse of women, then it could seriously affect our funding.

Sandra Horley, CEO of Refuge (Wolff, 1992)"

I would like to see an end to the assault on male sexuality. I would like to see an end to the assault on mine, actually. I LIKE to be looked at appreciatively. Get over it, you can't ban biology, though you're having a damn good try eh?

I would like to see and end to the men=bad/women=good trope. It benefits absolutely no-one, except feminists.

As someone else has mentioned, homelessness disproportionately affects men. So does unemployment. So do workplace deaths.

Equal medical funding.

I would like to see the myth of 'patriarchy' debunked once and for all. It's bollocks, clearly.

That'll do for now.

I get quite incensed about how feminism affects me personally too, as a woman, but that's for another day.

Is it on an MRA forum or something? Unless they state they are MRA I don't know how you know, greenie

Treen, there are MRA's talking about attcaking particular feminists and particular threads on MN.

Yes, sue - the last invasion that I know of came from reddit. It brought a few mra types over here - most of whom were then banned. Pistonheads were trolling - but not what I'd call mra trolls. MN sorted them out too

Sabrina, you can't say those are MRAs doing the online attacking. You don't know if they are part of a movement. You don't know if they are educated in the debate or have an agenda.

There is similar abuse between Brits and Americans on a boxing forum I like.
It's wrong and needs stopping

Sigmund has said many times she is an MRA. How you can defend someone like Paul Elam is beyond me.

Yes, like the bank notes stuff. Or the Mary Beard fiasco. Or the Louise Mensch business. Or

Sigmund - Do any MNers send Paul abusive emails? If not, it is not equivalent.

MRA's are naming particular feminists on MN and talking about going after them on MN.

"Yes, it wasn't inflammatory at all sue."

What was inflammatory about it? I wasn't the one who posted it on Reddit, nor did I discuss it on Reddit. I let posters on the MN thread know they were being discussed - should I not have?

"that's where a lot of the mra invasions come from now"

Got any proof at all of that? I thought it was Pistonheads or something that was the current troll du jour.

Er...I think Paul Elam has been mentioned once or twice on this thread, and the man has a shitload of abusive emails from feminists 'going after' him. Is it different when feminists 'go after' and attack MRAs and men generally then?

Greenie - some MRAs doing that is disgusting. They shouldn't (a) target (b) name people. Hopefully the police will deal with them

I didn't realise the MRAs actually named particular feminist they were going after, on their sites. Yes they are not interested in helping men, just attacking feminists and women generally.