The overprotective Daddy culture. (No ones good enough for my little girl)

I haven't hear the son, but I presume these are the lyrics:

You're gonna meet some strangers
Welcome to the zoo
Bitter disappointments
Except for one or two
Some of them are angry
Some of them are mean
Most of them are twisted
Few of them are clean

Now when you go dancing with young men down at the disco
Just keep it simple
You don't have to kiss though

Don't waste time with the idiots that think that they're heroes
They will betray you
Stick with us weirdos

For all your days and nights
I'm gonna be there
I'm gonna be there yes I will
Go gentle through your life
If you want me I'll be there
When you need me I'll be there for you

Don't try to make them love you
Don't answer every call
Baby be a giant
Let the world be small
Some of them are deadly
Some don't let it show
If they try and hurt you
Just let your daddy know

Now when you go giving your heart make sure they deserve it
If they haven't earned it
Keep searching it's worth it

For all your days and nights
I'm gonna be there
I'm gonna be there yes I will
Go gentle through your life
If you want me I'll be there
When you need me I'll be there for you

Go gentle to the light
I'm gonna be there
I'm gonna be there yes I will
If all your days are nights
When you want me I'll be there
Say my name and I'll be there for you

It's a bit simplistic, I'm not keen on the 'let your daddy know' line. Nor the implication that relationships are the only goal in life. But overall it doesn't sound that different from the 'I would walk through fire for you' sentiment many parents express about their young children. And actually a lot of the statements are about her learning to stand on her own two feet in relationships and not put up with shit. Ok, again a bit of a simplistic message, but I get the impression he was probably quite a shit to women in the past so I get that's top of his list of advice.

That said, I have real problems with the "I'll kill any boy who goes near my daughter" school of fatherhood. Often typified by Bruce Willis- in interviews, in Die Hard (or one of those), in his Friends appearance. Chasity balls in the US literally make me feel queasy.

I also agree strongly with what has been said above about the risk of it effectively becoming victim blaming. That if you didn't take the advice about how to behave, it's your own fault when you end up in an abusive relationship.

Thanks, MooncupGoddess. (Is that a job title? Do you do presentations in schools and workplaces with powerpoints headed: THE MOONCUP: an overview by Mooncup Goddess"?)

For decent, liberal, left wing men who loathe mysoginy they also feel like they're swimming against a tide of shit too.

I know for my dh when he worries for foster dd it's not in any way about ownership and control (I know he wants her to love/be loved and have a good intimate life) but instead it's because he comes from a place of knowing that teenage boys are very knob obsessed/blow job obsessed/porn obsessed - as a teacher he sees how badly so many teenage boys are brought up and the massively damaging effects on intimacy pornography has.

So obviously he does his best to have a culture of respect in his work place and amongst his students but of course at home and privately he still worries for and try's to help me protect dd.

The way we do that is by talking to her about protecting herself and by keeping herself safe.

Sorry to hear you are feeling so rubbish, mildred. Your posts recently have been fantastic (small comfort I know).

I'd just add to all of this that it is really important to teach girls (and boys) that they don't have to be in a relationship. It is perfectly possible to be a happy, interesting and useful human being who is single. If there wasn't so much emphasis in our culture about the importance of pairing up it would be much easier for women not to put up with crap treatment from men (and indeed vice versa).

DontCallMeBAby, yes it is nice to be nice. but ...

"his sons get the message that that is how you treat your partner, his daughters the message that that is the behaviour you should expect.

"his sons get the message that that is how you treat your partner,"

well that is good, as far as it goes

"his daughters the message that that is the behaviour you should expect." - and where does that lead them? Stamping their feet and saying "up with this I will not put!" and "you are a cad and a bounder, no gentleman in my family would treat a woman the way you intend to treat me". And where is this going to get her?

And even if this were to work it just seems so ... accepting of division. Dividing women into wheat and chaff. The wheat who have learnt to put their feet down and receive respectful love and have happy lives; and the chaff who haven't learnt and... by implication don't matter.

I know no one here really thinks that there is a subset of women which doesn't matter but all this jolliness about what decent people we all are comes across a bit like that.

Then again I am in a very dark, despairing place at the moment. If there are wheat (skilled at relationships) and chaff (not skilled at them) I am definitely the latter which is why I am taking all this to heart so much.

It's better than having a dad that doesn't care.

SS you could be onto something...my husband seems to think it but he vocalises it too. He often says how much he dislikes men as a class.

We have two daughters and sometimes my husband gets worried...but he says it is because he knows how many men are horrible and disgusting towards women and girls. It isn't anything to do with property or possession - just an awareness he has that so many members of his sex can be downright evil towards females.

I hate to say it and I hope I'm wrong but this is one of the reasons I suspect there is something dark within men's sexuality. They know it but they don't want the women the love to know it, or be hurt by it. Or maybe it's something they have been taught is dark? (like what though, that actually isn't?)

It's an awful way to think so I hope I'm wrong.

It's way more nuanced than that 'nothing to fear' statement, but there's something in it. Every time anyone of either sex behaves decently and respectfully to anyone, a child seeing it gets a message. If it's consistent, the message is reinforced - dad treats mum with respect, his sons get the message that that is how you treat your partner, his daughters the message that that is the behaviour you should expect. Of course it works for mum's behaviour too, and boys should get the message that THEY deserve good treatment too, but the point is it counters the prevailing message from society. The flipped gender thing is why I steer clear of doing the 'aren't men hopeless' thing around DD (or at all, as I am a SAINT ) - it's not something I want her to learn, and DH deserves better.

It is all just a little help though, and of course nothing you do in any sphere of life equals 'nothing to fear'.

BTW, final straw for removing one person from my Facebook was a 'rules for dating my daughter' post. His daughter was about 6 at the time, and I just found it appalling in ways I couldn't begin to articulate. This thread has made me think about it - he was actually an ex-boyfriend, and I strongly suspect his attitude stemmed from the kind of teenage boy HE was, way back.

Really interesting thread!

Mildred yes, you're right. This song and the 'overprotective daddy' persona taps into some very deep seated patriarchy.

" if you insist on fully respectful behaviour from men at all times towards women - and know that this is not some kind of unrealistic gold standard - then you have nothing to fear for your daughters."

this is the sort of thing that is bringing me out in a rash these days. I know it is meant well, and it is based on the realistic truth of the converse (if you are a shit to women, you have direct experience of shittiness to women, and this induces fear). but it is so whistling-in-the-dark, never-say-die UNTRUE. you can be as nice as you like and instil whatever lovely values you like but there are still hatey bastards out there. I keep reading jolly hearty things on here about how all will be well if we all be nice and hang out around nice people and don't be aggressive back and be all jolly hockey sticks and I can't help but feel really dark and twisted and moody about it because it is so very very very very close to victim-blaming, and so hearty and positive and ugh

I long to be hearty and positive, of course, as you can guess. I am just eaten up with weariness and envy.

what this dynamic is about is men relating primarily to each other and women being pawns or symbols within their dynamic. So the man cleaning his gun when the young man comes round is asserting his status by saying "the beautiful trophy belongs to me. know your place or I will be violent." Later, if they young couple marry, the "giving away" is a strong show that the older man has not been unseated from his silverback status by choosing to give the beautiful trophy to the young man. au contraire, it is implicit that the young man has sucked up enough and reinforced the silverback's status to an extent that makes him suitable to receive this award, and be considered among his loyal clansmen / juniors

Being overprotective of girls and not worrying so much about your boys is also tied into victim blaming.

Instead of thinking, "I must put a lot of time and effort into helping my son become a decent human being", it's "I must protect my girl from the sexual dominance and violence of boys". The actions of boys and men is seen as uncontrollable and out of our hands.

So instead of trying to influence it, we prepare for the fallout of their actions - because boys are free agents and girls are not.

*Men who think "no man is good enough for my little girl" make me think that they must be a bit of a crap husband/partner themselves.

Otherwise they would be aware that some men are good partners.*

I knew a guy when I was a teenager who said he hoped he never had a daughter because he'd have to kill any boyfriends she might have. I strongly suspect the reason he thought this way was because of his own experience as a young male and how he treated the women in his life (not a nice guy). He has daughters now.

The best way for a father to protect his daughters is to show her a good example by treating his wife/partner/mother of daughter well. That way she is less likely to choose one of the bad ones he'd want to protect her from.

I would answer your question Biggedy, but since the thread is not about that I would be helping to derail it, I am sure everyone would be happy for you to start a thread about the mother/daughter dynamic though.

OP I agree, it is about ownership IMO and harks back to the days when a woman was her fathers possession until she married and he literally gave her (and her virginity) away on her wedding day.

And of course it ties into those creepy purity/chastity balls in the USA where 12 year old girls get dressed up, attend as their fathers 'dates' and publicly swear to be a good little virgin until they marry (and to hand over their virginity to their father for safe keeping). Creepy as fuck if you ask me.

A girls/woman's sexuality belongs to no one but herself.

Okay, so I was wrong. Feminists don't do that. Apologies. Does anyone here ever discuss the stuff that come up on here with their daughters? DV, sexual assault/rape, everyday sexism? Or is it something a girl becomes aware of for herself as she grows up? Stats like 1 in 4 women being subject to DV.

It feels like an ownership/control issue to me. As Buffy says, it's fine for men to joke about not letting their daughters out alone until they're 25, whereas mothers who said the same about their sons would be pilloried.

Aggh!
At the same time being totally unable to comprehend how his own daughter can exist in the same conceptual universe as the woman getting spit roasted on his iPhone screen. Like Trills said, if you insist on fully respectful behaviour from men at all times towards women - and know that this is not some kind of unrealistic gold standard - then you have nothing to fear for your daughters.

I think this attitude is often tied in with a tacit acceptance (by the same men) that men can be utter disrespectful shits to women. It's the mentality that sees a man not complaining/objecting to use of porn (because the women in it are somehow subhuman?) but at the same time not be

A feminist may sit her daughter down and show her cold, hard statistics about the likelihood of her being sexually assaulted/raped, abused in the street or harassed by a man in a bar. How does a man respond without incurring criticism for being overbearing?

If Katy Melua or Tori Amos wrote a song about such concerns, would you be as concerned?

The best example a dad sets is how he treats his daughter's mum. If your daughter sees a loving,respectful relationship at home, that is the standard she will judge men by. Not an axe by the front door.