Can I ask you for some links about porn please?

Both sexes making porn is not a workable solution in a patriarchal society. Men's porn will always be the default and women making it too just legitimises men's porn. Also, there's no guarantee that the women's porn would not be imbued with patriarchal values as we all live in this society.

I don't say we need to encourage women to make porn. I asked the question. At it's heart it's trying to point out the incongruities in the opinion.

If the objection to porn is the imposition of one generations sexuality on another, both genders making it is one solution

I would have no problem with a government ban on porn. The government currently draws the line on all sorts of policies because we live in a parliamentary democracy. That's how it works.

"Porn is essentially the self expression of the individual who made it, One type of porn does not represent all mankind in the same way as female sexuality is not uniform. Yes if most pornography is made by men iyou are quite right it will not be about female self expression"

I think this overlooks the gendered reality of porn in favour of a patriarchy-free ideal. Porn as it is now, whether soft or hardcore, is produced for men and by men. There may be one or two producers who are trying to make feminist porn but this is a mere drop in the ocean against what is being shoved in the faces of young women. Telling them it's all just free expression adds to the pressure on young women to push their boundaries and to see themselves as the sex class for the satisfaction of men. To that extent, feminist porn is adding to the problem, not helping it.

Grennie - I don't think it's needed in the slightest

But you don't have to look too hard through history to see the line at what we need and don't need has been drawn in very places at very different times according to the ruling class.

We are facing a very real crunch point at which the argument on the rights and wrongs of porn are colliding with state censorship. The government is looking to pass laws about what you can and can't search for on the internet. Where do you place that line? Do you want the government to place that line? Or do you want to put that boundary in place yourself?

But you say we need to start encouraging women to make a different kind of porn. Why? What is the value in that?

I'm against the imposition of someone elses values on my own. Like discussion on the subject instead.

Paper - Why do you think we need to have porn?

"It's disingenuous to suggest that you are all for freedom of expression and everyone else is against it. You are just drawing a different line."

spot on. everyone's line will be different you probably wouldn't like my line and I wouldn't like yours, which is the problem with treat a vast body of material as all the same (good or bad)

I have serious questions about porn, they just aren't the same.

NO we are getting to the interesting discussion....

But the argument against porn is that it enables a male view of sexuality to be imposed on a female.

Porn is essentially the self expression of the individual who made it, One type of porn does not represent all mankind in the same way as female sexuality is not uniform. Yes if most pornography is made by men iyou are quite right it will not be about female self expression

Does that mean we should rail against porn or do the opposite and start encouraging women to produce our own? therefore is it the porn that's wrong or the way it is produced?

You do accept the concept of censorship though paper. You just have your own view on what is acceptable and what is not. Other people will have a different view.

It's disingenuous to suggest that you are all for freedom of expression and everyone else is against it. You are just drawing a different line.

In this country we are pretty free, in other cultures woman are less so but accepting the concept of censorship as correct means essentially you also have to accept the cultural assumptions of the ruling class. Can't see that this is always a good thing

I will say it once finally. no problem with you thinking I'm a troll no problem with you reporting me. But troll hunting shouldn't happen because it certainly read to me that way.

"But I do think you're conflating the issue of puritanical restrictions on people's freedom of sexual expression with the issues of the harm porn does to performers, to women in general, and to young people at a very vulnerable stage when they're forming their sexual identities."

No I think the balance is very difficult. Restriction on expression automatically involves a reduction in self moderation and an assumption that there is a universal norm. In this country we are pretty free, in other cultures woman are less so but accepting the concept of censorship as correct

Yes I think maybe I have pushed and prodded a little. I feel that dimissing or accepting someones opinion purely based on gender is unhelpful in the extreme. in the debate we absolutely should not be placing arbitary assumptions about the limit of female sexuality that may or may not be right. that absolutely was what was happening at the start of the thread.

Most successful anti-bullying campaigns will work with the perpetrator but do also work with the "victim". Freedom project. Stonewall project. Bullying and abuse is a lot about disempowering the victim. It may be a knee jerk reaction but for this reason alone I am anti-anything that takes away an individuals own agency in their own life

Paper - Nobody here has said you are a Troll on a thread about a thread.

Questioning to yourself I have no problem with. Reporting neither. that's how healthy self regulation works. troll hunting on a thread about another thread I have an issue with, (actually whether it's about me or not although I do think it was) it's disrespectful and hurtful

Actually I think teaching this alone to boys and girls is the best way to protect both sexes

But that's what we should be teaching what a healthy relationship looks like, what is doesn't look like. It's applicable to ALL relationships.

sorry, should read "posting history"

OK, can I make suggestion, which is try to sleep on it, then re-read your posts and ask how they might have been taken the wrong way? Because my first thought was troll, then when I checked your posting my second thought was "has her account been hacked?" Because there's a big difference between saying "look, not all of us like vanilla sex, some of us have more varied tastes" and seeing that as synonymous with porn as being a viable way of exploring non-vanilla sex (yes, I have seen Greek redware vases in the British Museum, I dipped into de Sade very quickly - and out again, because it made me want to vomit - I know this stuff isn't new).

But I do think you're conflating the issue of puritanical restrictions on people's freedom of sexual expression with the issues of the harm porn does to performers, to women in general, and to young people at a very vulnerable stage when they're forming their sexual identities.

Paper, I too questioned to myself whether you were genuine. Apologies for that. I don't agree with your views though.

Yes regular sex can be degrading. It can also be very loving. It really depends on the people involved and whether they really do love and respect each other.

Nobody disagrees with teaching girls to not do anything they dont want to. But do you see why only teaching this is not enough to protect girls or women?

You teach one as bad and one as good you are leaving young women pretty vulnerable.

I suppose this to me is a the feminist issue