College Women: Stop Getting Drunk

wol1968, the logic only works if you believe that women can leave their vaginas at home when they go out, or lock them safely up. And that if you believe that a man deciding to put his penis in a woman's body when she hasn't invited him to, is the same sort of behaviour as going into someone's house and running out with their iPod. Opportunist burgling as a result of unlocked doors, isn't quite the same as a deliberate violation of someone's physical boundaries. I'm sure that lots of burglars are the opportunist type - they would run a mile if they thought the householder was anywhere near or would wake up and challenge them - they have no intention of using violence to get what they want. Rapists otoh have every intention of putting their penis into someone else's body without that person's consent, so they don't really belong in the same category as an opportunist thief.

And that's why of course, the sentence is much longer. Because even the misogynists who set up our laws, recognised that violating someone's physical boundaries, is different from just stealing things from them.

KarenIngalaSmith - thank you for posting on this thread. I really appreciate and respect your work on this.

(seems somehow not enough, but there you go)

The 'don't get drunk' advice to women follows the same logic.

Thank goodness that there are people around ready to explain the more complex points of this thread to me.

Yes, of course these precaution are needed. I always remember to lock up my vagina whenever I leave the house. Of course, the times I was blooming well raped was in my own bed by my own boyfriend. Darn it.

I can't help thinking of the police advice to lock your house when you go out so you don't get broken into.

In an ideal world, we wouldn't need locks and keys and extra security. We'd be able to leave our bikes on our doorsteps and nip down the road for a few minutes for a chat with a neighbour, not worrying that we've left the front door open. But the world isn't like that. If I were to go out and leave the front door unlocked, or a window open, it would be much easier to get burgled and have my stuff stolen and/or damaged. This doesn't mean I'm ever to blame for the burglary. People who break in and steal stuff are entirely to blame for the act, and their actions are criminal, whereas if I left my front door open I would be merely careless. What's more, I could still get burgled if my house was like Fort Knox, and the burglar was sufficiently determined and well-equipped.

The 'don't get drunk' advice to women follows the same logic. Keeping a sober head may not stop you being raped, but if you get blind drunk you lose your boundaries and sense of danger, and might make yourself more vulnerable to the dangerous minority of sexual predators. That sounds fairly reasonable to me, in a very non-ideal world. Not the same thing at all as deserving to be raped, which nobody does, ever.

Re Sexual violence and sex differences:

Of the 476,000 (average per year, between 2009 -2012) adults reporting being victims of sexual offences around 404,000, or 85 per cent of the total were women and 72,000 or 15 per cent were men.
The Home Office estimates that of the estimated 78,000 rape victims each year, 69,000, or 88 per cent are women.
95% of adults - of either sex - who had experienced serious sexual assault since said the offender(s) was male and 5% said the offender(s) was female.
(Home Office Report: An Overview of Sexual Offending in England and Wales aggregates three years’ data from 2009 -2012)

Choudhary, et al (2012)found that approximately 90% of sexual assaults experienced by males, are against males under the age of 19.

Beatrixparty - I do give the sources of my data in my blog, I reference Marianne Hester (2009),Kimmel 2002, Dobash et al. 1998 and discuss the problems with the data from the British Crime Survey. wp.me/p3jI2H-2r

Yes she does. But if you aren't satisfied ask her. I'm sure she'd be more than happy to provide further information.

Yes - the results from the British Crime Survey show significant differences from the data from Police and CPS - higher in the former than the latter.

That's what I'm saying.

Ms Smith attempts to criticise the survey but doesn't then provide references for those critisms

Wikipedia. Of course.

Interesting, I'll give it a go - something for you to read then too

Of course you do. There you go

Scallopsgreat

In cases of DV men are more likely to report, more likely to report sooner and for less and more likely to be believed.

I'd be very interested to see the source for this comment. In my experience, dealing with divorces, men don't generally make such complaints to the police.

Wow SDTG you read a lot into that post! I certainly did not mean anything you said. I meant, in the context of this thread that men don't worry about being sexually assaulted, certainly not by women. I don't think they even get round to worrying about whether they would be believed if they report. It is something women consider before they are even assaulted or raped.

There is no evidence that they wouldn't be believed. In cases of DV men are more likely to report, more likely to report sooner and for less and more likely to be believed. So I don't see why that would be any different for sexual assault.

It was an issue that arose from the way the thread went, Basil. I think you are right about the fear a woman would feel, and that a man probably wouldn't feel that.

And I am telling my dses to avoid drunken sex altogether - and whilst I am not telling them to avoid getting rotten drunk because they might get raped, I am telling them to avoid getting drunk because of all the other risks they'd be opening themselves up to.

As specialsubject said! being rotten drunk is a really bad idea - bad for your health, unattractive, and very risky behaviour. I do not, and never have supported the message 'don't get drunk so you don't get raped' aimed at college women or indeed any women.

Of course it matters.

But no one is telling young men and boys not to drink in case they get raped. (Or more to the point, in case they rape.)

I think it's reasonable to assume that the average young man waking up with the average young woman assaulting him, will not feel the fear a woman being assaulted by a man will feel - on average, he'll be bigger and stronger than her and not have been socialised to feel responsibility for her behaviour or a need to placate her or not hurt her feelings. He will also not be blamed for her behaviour if he tells anyone afterwards and instead of being condemned as a slut, he will be congratulated as a stud. I think if my DS is ever assaulted by a girl, he will probably be better able to defend himself, than my DD if she is ever assaulted by a boy. Which doesn't make it any better, but let's not be disingenuous and pretend that it is exactly a mirror image in terms of physical, emotional and psychological experience.

I think your DS is right, no one would take him seriously which is not a good thing. That is largely a result of patriarchal attitudes to sex and gender policing of boys' feelings so if he wants to change that, he should work with feminists to tear down those attitudes.

Interesting though this whole issue is, what has it got to do with girls being told not to drink in case boys rape them?

So it doesn't matter that a 16 year old boy believes the police wouldn't take him seriously if he was sexually assaulted, scallops? If that attitude is commonplace amongst men and boys, then maybe there are assaults that are going unreported - which would be a bad thing, I think.

And before anyone accuses me, I do NOT think taking sexual assaults on men and boys seriously means we should take sexual assaults on women any less seriously.

I have a horrible feeling that you are saying men and young men are so Neanderthal that they would just think, "way hey, I got some sex" and no man would ever feel violated if someone (male or female) did something sexual to them without their consent.

Or does it not matter because it is happening to men - or even one man?

the knee-jerk response to this article is odd because it isn't what I read in it.

no, you are never responsible if you get raped.

but yes- swilling booze until you fall over and vomit is disgusting and a revolting abuse of good health. Drunk is ugly in both genders.

have some self-control, don't be a sheep. If you can't have fun without being drugged out of your mind, perhaps it is time to get a life.

I wonder how many boys/men worry about being sexually assaulted by women full stop SDTG.

Completely forgot to post the link on Lisak on college campus rapists - here it is:
www.middlebury.edu/media/view/240951/original/

It's just an on-line essay but it has references at the end to his peer-reviewed stuff.

I had a chat with ds3 yesterday, and asked him how he'd feel if he was so drunk he passed out, and he came to, and found a woman taking advantage of him sexually - would he consider it assault, would he contact the police?

He said he didn't think the police would take him seriously, they'd just laugh. It is maybe not relevant to this debate, but I wonder how many men and boys would have the same worries about reporting a sexual assault (whether from a woman or man).

Another aspect of this which is quite intriguing is.....why college women? Is it because:

a) it's not so bad for non-college women (ie potentially lower class women) to be raped?

Or

b) college women, being (presumably) quite intelligent, are usually too clever/sensible to put themselves in vulnerable situations where they might be raped unless they are drunk so they 'should know better than to get drunk at all,' whereas non-college women are 'bad girls' who get drunk a lot anyway so no point trying to appeal to them?

Glosswitch on form on this here

It should (but sadly doesn't) go without saying that the only "fault" lies with the person committing the crime. But that doesn't mean we should make it easy for them.
When I drink, I take more risks than when I am sober. I am less likely to be able to spot danger signs, and everyone seems like my new best friend. Mostly I have got away with it, but sometimes it was close. I don't drink when I go our for the same reason that I don't drink before I drive- it affects my judgement.

Basil

Re: Sink Estates. I accept that it was wrong and careless of me to put it in those terms. I apologise.

Also I don't know why you're assuring me that she wasn't from a sink estate.

Lack of respect for other people's boundaries isn't a class issue IMO and IME.