Warwick University rowing club women's team calendar

Again though the university of warwick have done worse - a maths professor viewing pornographic videos..hardcore videos which require credit card membership in front of students he taught was NOT fired.

Well, I don't know the details of that case - but it sounds pretty bad, from the way you've presented it.

What has it to do with flora's point though?

sigh again. not at all nice weak as hell 'attack' I'm sorry I don't agree with you it must trouble you greatly.

I'm saying that buying pictures for money ..charity in the calendar's case.. could be viewed as evil exploitation but you have to extend this to all images for which money is exchanged. I just think it's weird to view particularly images of young women problematic but not older women, men, women in paintings men in paintings etc.

Again though the university of warwick have done worse - a maths professor viewing pornographic videos..hardcore videos which require credit card membership in front of students he taught was NOT fired.

Perhaps there are other battles to fight than women choosing an experience they want to have that seems to be promoting desexualised images of unclothed women over pornified ones.

I look forward to the next hint at character flaws you use if you don't agree or understand this post! :)

What a bizarre analogy. Naked images of women compared with paintings of leaves, religious paintings or tv documentaries.

Leaves, religious paintings and tv documentaries are not oppressed and living in an anti-leaf, anti-religious paintings or anti-tv documentary society. The paintings or documentaries are not presented for the consumption of the beneficiaries of the anti-leaf, anti-religious painting or anti-tv documentary society.

I did not comment on whether I feel negatively about the images of naked older WI women. You are reading things into my comments based on your pre-baked, half-baked ideas of what feminists think. I was comparing the differences in the consumption of fireman and WI women vs. these types of calendars and the different impacts of individual choice on society as a whole. Those calendars still impact on the collective view because we know they are ironic / funny - isn't it hilarious these are not young naked women but semi-naked firemen or semi-naked old women. It's a slightly different impact but it comes from the same root.

sigh. Last post of NotDead is incomprehensible. Drunk?

sigh. the e il of public male consumption..like my leaf pictures my religeous paintings my tv documentaries... come on why must you only see female nudity as negative unless its older WI women? I just find that odd,

Mind you the University of Warwick has sacked people for looking at figurative nudes.. whilst simultaneously having nude art classes and two nude calendars so hypocracy is everywhere!

I didn't say the images are porn. I said they are presenting women's bodies for public male consumption for money. Porn also does this. This is not these images = porn.

I think it's sad and depressing that you can't get that so I'm not surprised you don't understand feminism.

I just don't see the porn filter you do in any of the warwick calendar images Flora. I think it's sad that you see any nude young woman as porn tbh. quite depressing.

Great post flora.

grr

link

www.theonion.com/articles/women-now-empowered-by-everything-a-woman-does,1398/?ref=auto

Interesting to see so many non-feminists here expounding on what feminists supposedly believe. Feminists don't believe women are naïve, stupid, bimbos, unknowing, passive etc. FFS! Quite the opposite.

"I think that women making their own decisions at whatever level of knowledge, (approved of by some feminists or not) is part of what feminism should be allowing and encouraging."

This is actually the strand of feminism that currently gets the most airtime so you can't be looking very hard if you think this view is not represented in feminism.

However there are also feminists who believe that choice in and of itself is not a particularly worthwhile goal. There are feminists who believe that feminism seeks to end the liberation of women as a class from oppression. There are also differing views among philosophers (feminist or not) about whether choice is a valid concept for human interaction given that it is constrained by the options available to us, our ability to make rational or good choices and the influence of societal expectations and norms on the choices we make.

In the case of the Warwick calendar, I have not seen any feminists arguing that these women did not make a choice or that they are stupid and uninformed (only the non-feminists are saying that). However, I believe that not every choice a woman makes is a pro-feminist choice nor that it is something that feminists have to support. For example:

www.theonion.com/articles/women-now-empowered-by-everything-a-woman-does,1398/?ref=auto

Some choices women make perpetuate the position of women as a class as the decorative sex class. The women in the Warwick calendar may not understand this argument but equally they may understand and not agree or understand and not care. I don't know them so I couldn't say.

When firemen make a semi-naked (rarely naked) calendar, they are subverting societal expectations because they are men who are valued for their actions and contributions to society being presented as decorative objects - hilarious right? It is ironic to present them as objects for viewing and there is often a humourous element in the poses. When the original WI "calendar girls" made their calendar, it was ironic and even subversive because they were old and WI. Old women's faces (let alone their bodies) are rarely presented in publications. What this Warwick calendar is doing is nothing different than page 3, lads mags or porn - presenting women's bodies for public male consumption for money. This perpetuates the objectification of women as a class as being assessed based on their appeal to men - and any of you who might be thinking that I am just jealous of how they look are proving my point.

Taking back nude to me would be people walking around naked. Which wouldn't bother me. How are they taking it back by posing and selling it?

oh yeah, and in my last but one post - those two views are ve-ry similar aren't they?

Oh yes, and its entirely valid to talk about the 'taking back of the nude' seeing everything that is beautiful about the human body as sexual if there is skin on show .. or indeed in this case only when women do it, is again a little weird in my view.

um just to clarify I don't hate feminism or feminists.

I think that women making their own decisions at whatever level of knowledge, (approved of by some feminists or not) is part of what feminism should be allowing and encouraging.

I make reference above to the curious parallel between the 'patriarchal' right wing, prude, etc view of (young in this case) women, that they are curious creatures buffeted about by intellectual forces they don't understand (the 'women know your place' idea) and the feminist ('women are always subservient and dependent on men and the only time they appear to be empowered is when they are being manipulated by men' idea) the second idea is curious because by describing the world this way, you are pushing women (back) into a disempowered box.

It makes me uncomfortable this projecting a view of passive, unknowing idiotic bimbos onto younger women when they do something you don't want them to, but not when they don't, that's all.

As an aside whatever happened to the 'himbo' trope??

Martin, I guess it is a feminist issue, because feminists have an issue with it. Some of them kicked off last year when the women's team did their previous nude calendar.

I think the feminist perspective on this is that these women are naive and not fully aware of the wider context. There is not usually any direct blaming of women who take similar actions, as these women are just not as aware as feminists of their role in society, and how they are being directly manipulated by the male illuminati (patriarchy) purely for the licentious pleasure of men. Feminists seek to raise the consciousness of other women, so that the unfairness of their lesser role in society becomes apparent.

Pumpkin, just because you know very few black people who say it, doesn't make it so. It happens. I have a view on it, but it is their issue, not mine. I agree with your point about those who do not growing up with the connotations though. Just as these affluent white women at a redbrick university may not have grown up feeling the jackboot of the patriarchy crushing the windpipe of their dreams and aspirations. In fact, depending on their background, they may never come to feel it.

AH, right.....

then to be fair, I'm not a fan of the rabid bra burning "all men are B....." style of feminists either......

I'm certainly pro equality, but get so bored of EVERYTHING being a feminist issue......

They are rowers! I used to row and there were naked rowing calendars back then. Everyone bought them and put them up in their loos because it was hilarious to see your mates looking so silly. To turn it into a feminist issue is ridiculous, there are much bigger fish to fry!

ah right, pretty girls are thick and naive, and all men who want to take their shirts off are strong role models. that's what you're saying........

I respectfully disagree

its different because men who choose to be nude are strong capable autonomous decision-makers who make decisions to be nude without vulnerability and with full appreciation of the facts. Young women on the other hand are brainless vulnerable passive decision-makers naive and unaware of the consequences of their actions, incapable of getting things right and unable to handle the massive sinister consequences of every action they take.

how is it any different to the 80s athena poster of the bloke holding the baby, or the hunky firemen calendar?

it's certainly less erotic than 90% of the pop videos on any day time music channel you can choose.

What if women 'reclaim' the nude image, as has happened with black people and the word 'nigger'. Can young, educated, wealthy white women do something to lessen the grip that the advertising and porn industries on nude, sexualised body images through images such as these?

I know very few black people in rl who use that word. Most just find it abhorrent. The ones who do are not American (or English speaking) and didn't grow up with the connotations. Rappers and the like are not all black people they are a few random celebs doing their thing and it has been picked up by some young people.

And even then one black guy saying "hey nigger" to another black male is not the same as if they took a bunch of pictures of themselves that said nigger under the photos and then sold it to white people.

The consumers of these catalogues is going to be far and wide men. Not other women.