Overweight issue - debate

You are misusing "obese". You are using it as a shorthand for something that it doesn't technically mean and this is dangerous in a very loaded area like this. You don't get to decide what "obese" means any more than you get to decide what "table" or "centimetre" means. You may or may not pay attention to BMI, but obese = BMI of 30 or more. If you don't want to talk about obese people in that sense, pick another word.

When I say "let go" I am suggesting that you "let go" of other people's feminism and what matters to them. I am not saying "don't talk about it" I am saying "stop being so emotionally invested in something that is not your problem". You are SO SO SO SO LUCKY that it is not your problem. If you can't support it, forget about it and don't argue with it.

Of course I do not think you will become unhealthy. I was just wondering what you are so worried about - because you are talking about health a lot, but that must surely be a red herring

But DSM - if you use the term 'obese' you must expect posters to assume you're using the standard definition of the word. If you're ONLY talking about people who are morbidly obese (and even then I find your attitude rather unkind and unsympathetic) you should have said so from the beginning. In the first paragraph of your OP you complain about people who are merely 'overweight' justifying themselves.

DSM, firstly, you are being very triggering on this thread. Just so you know. I think you should consider reporting this to mn and getting a note in the title that makes it clear that it is not suitable for people with eating disorders.

Secondly - I know someone has touched on this but I just want to come back to it - you are, I believe, misunderstanding "obese". A person with a BMI of 30 or over is technically obese. For a person who is 5 foot 7 that is around 13 stone 11, and that looks like this:

how2peelanonion.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/weight-other-side-of-my-love-of-food.html

(this is not me. Apologies if this is your blog and you don't want this linked to but by the way I think you are bloody gorgeous, blogger)

Scroll down to the "before" picture - that woman is technically obese. To me she looks like she can run up the stairs as many times as she needs to and perhaps enjoys a game of tennis. I don't think we all need to fan ourselves with fear about her health or mobility. On the other hand - we could be wrong. WE CAN'T TELL BY LOOKING. And on YET another hand, EVEN IF WE COULD, HER HEALTH IS HER BUSINESS.

Thirdly, you really need to let go. If a very overweight feminist includes standing up for her right to have the body that suits her, as part of her feminism, who is that harming? she isn't making anyone else be a particular way, or be more unhealthy (even if fat = unhealthy, which it doesn't). You seem to be talking about health as a cover for something else. Because you don't become unhealthy by sharing a political movement with people who could stand to lose a couple of stone. Is it that you don't want your movement to be associated with that sort of thing? because it doesn't look good?

On a side note, Vinegar, you and all of us who are tall have BMI higher than it "looks" like we should have because BMI has height squared, and it should use something like height 2.5 or 3. People are 3-dimensional and we would expect mass to scale with height3, not ^2. BMI overestimates the 'obesity' of tall people and underestimates that of shorter people, which is one main reason it's crap.

I think the question "are men doing it?" is a relevant one. Risky behaviours include some sports, alcohol consumption, liberal sexual behaviour, and some eating habits, and some jobs (police, military, rescue services and more). These are risky and potentially "bad for us" and it could be argued that to minimise those risks, for our own good, we should not do those things.

I think where feminism can really play an important role is in pointing out, and fighting against, double standards in which men do those things with little social penalty and in many cases social rewards, but women are humiliated, shamed, and endure great social costs for doing them. It's a familiar story if you think about sex, obviously. This double standard is certainly at play in the culture around the "obesity epidemic" and obesity generally. On that basis I support fat acceptance, and I support sexual liberation and empowerment for women, despite the (hopefully small, if done correctly) risks of STIs. Some risks are acceptable given the reward: living life more the way we want to.

While I don't think we should celebrate obesity in and of itself, we do in some sense celebrate promiscuity, risky levels of alcohol consumption, participation in risky sports and various other risks -- there is much bravado out there on these things, variously socially celebrated in various sub-cultures. Maybe we shouldn't celebrate these things either (especially the binge drinking!). But we shouldn't have them penalized harshly for women and slightly or not at all for men, which is where we are at now, I think - especially for fatness.

Why should people have to "do something about it" in order to be socially accepted? Everyone has things in their life which aren't necessarily the healthiest choices, but if others can't see them, they remain socially "acceptable".

But they do have the right to be the size they are. It's no-one else's business. It's a feminist issue because women are often told they "should" look or be a certain way, and we have the right to reject this and indeed to do the exact opposite if we wish.

Slangking I agree, good post.

DSM I do see where you are coming from but I agree with Slangking that our risks should be our own.

Perhaps I take this issue a little personally since I am a size 18-20 (I was larger) however, I eat more healthily than most people. I swim twice a week 50 lengths each time and do aqua aerobics 1 - 2 times a week. I also walk everywhere. There are a lot of much slimmer people around who do far less than I do but they are free to judge me purely on my appearance and they can do so under the guise of being worried for my health. Surely that is my worry to bear. As it happens it does worry me as I have children so I am doing something but I don't need to be told by others that I am inferior to them because of how I look.

So if a person isn't obese but downs a 2 litre bottle of coca-cola a day and lives on takeaways (but it doesn't show, so they aren't obese) is that ok? You can't tell outwardly so you can't judge their health - in terms of judging people by appearance they pass. By contrast an obese person may be actively trying to tackle the issue; eating well, exercising as much as they can but still be obese. Society are free to judge them because that is how they look.

My issue is judging people, in particular women, on appearance and to a strict standard of what is acceptable. Yes, obesity is unhealthy, and that is something the obese person has to deal with. However, there are plenty of thin people who are unhealthy but they are not judged because they conform to a standard of appearance set by society.

I can assure you that constantly picking at people for their weight does not make them suddenly change their lifestyle, it just makes them unhappy. If it were that easy to change they would probably have done it already. Frankly there is no danger of ANYONE thinking obese = healthy, but why shouldn't people try to accept who they are and what they look like rather than hating themselves because it is OK for people to call them names, because y'know, it's unhealthy.

I honestly think that thinking like this is just a thinly veiled disguise for fat-shaming masquerading under 'concern'.

Hear hear SlangKing

Interesting to hear all this. I've just seen another thread from an OP who is a size 18 and can cycle 20 miles no problem.

Personally I am a size 10 but 30 lengths is an achievement and cycling more than 8 miles brings me to the verge of collapse. Clearly the judgy types with their head-tilty concerns about others' health should get off the case of large people and start hassling me and my kind. But they don't, eh?

Some great posts on this thread.

Firstly there seems to be a fallacy about what "obesity" means. This:. When your organs are struggling to cope with the weight. When you struggle with short walks. is just not true.

My BMI is just teetering between 29 and 30, which makes me "obese" some days. I'm 5'9" and a size 16. I don't "look obese". Yesterday was a fairly average day - I cycled 5 miles, walked 3.5 - towing/pushing over 20 kg of DC. I could have and frequently do, much more. I swim 80 lengths no problem.

Now why is my BMI still high? The main reason is that I'm 3 months postpartum and exclusively BFing - my body is physiologically programmed to hang on to that weight. The scales have not budged an inch since the week after my DD was born. FWIW I cycled at least 12 miles a day throughout my pregnancy.

Some women are lucky enough to lose the "baby weight" immediately & effortlessly. And not all women are obese due to pregnancy. But it's a big factor in many womens' weight gain that men never encounter.

Thanks, GV. I didn't know there was a Feminist forum till I clicked the link. Thought about fleeing before any 'Dworkins' found a male interloper but decided to grow a(nother) pair and add my deux centimes.

That was fantastic, Slang. Very life-affirming!

Unlike most smokers, binge drinkers, STD carriers and (particularly) extreem sports enthusiasts, obese people suffer the misfortune to wear the results of their foibles. The former can readily find respite in the crowd, an option unavailable to the obese. Prejudice and negative '-isms' are, and always will be, the bastion of the intellectually lazy. Hence, their targets are visible (obese, ginger people) and readily bracketed 'types'/minorities (asylum seekers, the unemployed). Fact is, there are lots of (potentially) unhealthy people wandering about, most of them metaphorically hiding behind the obese and hoping a new slimming drug isn't invented that'll expose THEM to the hate mob. From that perspective, this thread might equally have been about anyone making unhealthy lifestyle choices, AKA "risk takers" and whether they have a right to take those risks. Implicit in the idea that "bad habits" are indicative of weakness is the inference that a devotion to health and longevity is a strength. Is it? Longevity is a bleak prospect if you have to fill the time with (not too) rigorous exercise and fruit munching. Bad habits/risks might (more positively) be described as "enjoying the moment" - welcome respites from an otherwise dreary existence. So long as those activities don't negatively affect others they should be encouraged or, at least, ignored. I don't think obese people are asking anyone to embrace ill health just, quite rightly, to be free from prejudice that might - but shouldn't - be equally applied elsewhere. Prejudice and hate directed at anyone should concern even those not currently victimised by it because after the obese, smokers, promiscuous, etc have been "cleansed" you'll be nearer the top of the list. This is beyond a feminist issue. We have a right to take risks, whether they be paragliding or tucking in to a 2nd bucket of KFC, and be free of critcism for any unfortunate results that affect nobody beyond ourselves.