Am I wrong to let my daughter enjoy being girly then?

This is a really interesting debate and I thought it'd be a good place to share a website that a friend shared with me. www.amightygirl.com/ I particularly like the doll's house you can practice wiring in.

*I'm not trying to be antagonistic btw - this is something I have been pondering for a while.

I was moved to start this thread because I bumped into mil this morning on the way to nursery. Dd is wearing a pink dress with a netting tutu skirt today...and mil could not help herself from making the usual catty observations about that.
"Oh I'm sure you'll have to be very careful not to spoil such a lovely dress at nursery, by climbing or getting paint on it" - the onus being that the dress is impractical and silly. The dress was £8 and made of stretchy jersey, so it's comfortable, and I don't care if it gets painty or torn.
She just sees pink, and assumes I must be a facile ninny, when in fact I think it is she who is being narrow minded...iyswim?*

I emphasise with this. I used to get this a lot when dd1 was younger and I find you often hear comments about girls enjoying 'girly' things that are immediately followed up by some sort of unnecessary disclaimer such as "dd preferred playing with her disney princesses rather than barbie (she also loves playing in the mud and climbing trees!)" whereas you never see "ds always preferred the wooden train sets to the plastic (he also enjoys dressing up, crafts and baking!)"

I don't believe little girls are making these choices in a vacuum but I don't think any of us do and they seem to be the section of society that is most harshly criticised for conforming.

"Oh I'm sure you'll have to be very careful not to spoil such a lovely dress at nursery, by climbing or getting paint on it"

Your MIL is being a twit saying that. Your attitude is fine - she wears what she wants, its cheap, doesn't matter if it gets wrecked any more than if it was a t-shirt and trousers.

My DD stopped wearing pale pink shortly after climbing all 3 of the Yorkshire 3 peaks wearing pink trackies and pale trainers, decided at that point she wanted khaki chinos which didn't show the mud, and walking boots. But that was her choice - point is that being dressed in pink did not stop her climbing those hills!

My mum wanted me to be a tomboy like she was. I refused to wear anything except skirts and dresses until I was 12, and played with dolls. I think she was disappointed.

But I still grew up to be a feminist because of the books my mum bought, the way she challenged gender stereotyping, etc. Those things are important.

Sounds fine.

Its also perhaps worth pointing out that a child who's into pink sparkles at age 4 may develop quite different tastes within a few years! So long as she has the choice, and she's got clothes/shoes she can do real stuff in not just lelli kellis and 'fancy dresses', and you encourage her not to be a sheep just doing the same as everyone else, no problem.

I guess what we all want for our DC - girls and boys - is for them to be confident individuals.

Naaah - really - don't worry about it. There is no way at all that she's going to be denied making a choice to wear pink and buy my little pony and do girlie stuff.

I would personally think a dress with netting under it would restrict some of the things she might want to play with at nursery though.

I know exactly how you feel Pictish because I'm in the same position. I never bought pink for DD when she was younger, but she LOVES it and ALWAYS wants to wear it. She's always talking about looking beautiful etc. She's 3. I always feel that I'm being judged for 'putting her in pink' but if it were up to me she wouldn't wear it.

I would feel bad for forcing colours on her that she doesn't like or want to wear. I know she is very heavily influenced by what she sees ober girls wearing and I still hate the lack of choice. She wants an Innotab for Christmas. They're available in pink or blue...why not neutral. She loves the iPad and it isn't pink.....

OF course anyone should be able to chose whatever they like.

But I find it interesting that pink and sparkly is deemed to be "girly". It isn't in other countries and wasn't here once upon a time which tells me that girls (and women) are conditioned to accept that pink and sparkly is the epitome of being a girl/woman.

I would let her choose what she wants but I certainly wouldn't reinforce that pink and sparkly is "girly" its just what she likes because if a 4 year old boy likes pink (and frankly many many do as pink is an attractive colour to most small children) then is it "girly" for him too.

Or is it just a colour that she likes and colours (contrary to popular belief) don't actually have a gender.

Yes, I totally see.

My mum will be like that.

I wonder if maybe they're similar ages? My mum grew up in the 60s/70s and she is definitely conditioned by that idea that you should raise your girl children to be boyish and tough and that this is somehow a good thing. I suppose it's what leads to those ridiculous blokey power suits in the 80s.

Do you ever pick her up on it?

It should be a choice. My Mum hated pink. I was hardly ever ever allowed anything pink.

Of course you're not doing her a disservice.

There have been debates on here before saying precisely what you're saying - that it's really important not to equate saying 'it's a pity society pushes pink at little girls so much' with saying 'therefore pink is bad and we should make little girls feel bad about wearing it'.

I think it is part of a bigger problem, not just about pink. Your MIL's sneering at fancy dresses and pink is not so very far aware from the sort of people who comment that a little boy who cries is being a 'big girl's blouse', or who use 'girly' as an insult. A friend of mine was pointing out the other day that she's really uncomfortable with people using the word 'tomboy' for her DD, because it implies that these ways of behaving her DD has are boyish, rather than (as with your DD), just what she happens to like.

IMO it has to be a pretty basic part of feminism to accept that being 'girly' or 'boyish' are just behaviours, and one is not better than the other!

course it's fine to let kids play with the things they choose - I find the issue arises mainly the other way in our house.

2 of my 3 girls are quiet 'traditional' and do gravitate to make up, hair stuff, pink, little animals, dolls etc

my middle girl plays football, likes sciencey things, animals - in the getting dirty caring for them sense, moshy monsters, 'boys' computer games - which inlaws constantly try and change .

that irks me muchly

Hi OP

I'm a Guide leader and often have to justify (to DH amongst others) why girls need their own space to be girls, without this sort of pressure to somehow show your gender neutral credentials. Girls are just people and people have different interests, and some of them include pink/baking/makeup while others prefer football/outdoor adventure etc. We try to balance all these interests without saying to anyone that theirs are more valid in any way.

It's a good idea to explore why we have these interests (and where the influences come from) and we do that to some extent, but it would be a sad day if we had to start discouraging them for being "too pink".

(TBF DH always says "why can't boys who like this stuff join the Guides then like girls have joined the Scouts?" but that is a whole other discussion)

Of course if she wants to buy a my little pony, let her. Just make sure taht she knows she can have a range of toys and clothes. And if she is into princesses and the like, buy her some books that are about strong and capable princesses, not ones that constantly need to be rescued by princes.

Hardline radical feminist here. I have seen so many negative comments about radical feminists on mumsnet and don't really understand it?

I haven't seen any scorn heaped on girls for being girly, rather on toy shops etc for trying to engineer it.

I agree with Pootles2010. I have no problem with any children playing with any toys they like, and haven't seen anyone say anything against it.

But I don't like biased assumptions and marketing which steer girls or boys towards what someone else has decided is the "right" kind of toy for boys or girls.

I think the sheer scale of Pinkification does mean that it's an area which needs attention.

Not to limit what a DC (of either sex) chooses, but to ensure they have a range of opportunities and do not find their natural inclinations are inhibited by social pressures.

I don't remember ever seeing a flat 'deny them' post on MN. I have seen lots saying 'think about what you're doing and strive for balance'.

At 5 many children have pretty clear tastes.

My DD, memorably, tore a jacket that my DP had picked out for her at Bonpoint from his arms at the cash desk and threw it to the floor. She was not yet 2. Her tastes were clear!

I think 'choice' is a useless word here given the sheer volume of pink fluffy shit.

We get conditioned to like it - I know I like sparkly shoes, sparkly jewellery, swishy shit.

But I also know I'm conditioned to like it.