Am I wrong to let my daughter enjoy being girly then?

I own a pink toolset. It was given to me by my parents or perhaps stolen borrowed from their house at some point, I can't quite remember. If I had been buying a household tool set for myself it wouldn't have occured to me to buy pink as its not a colour I prefer, and I resent the implication that girls need things to be pink to use them.

That said, I blooming well use the toolkit as I am the person in this house who likes to diy (DH not interested) and its what we have. Some of the tools are a bit rubbish - the level for instance, but the hammer and screwdriver are really good. I don't think it a little bit rubbish because its a pink one, its just the price range its in. I now have bought myself a (green) drill and other bits and pieces.

I can't decide if I'm annoyed that they make pink tools for ladies, or whether its a shame that 'serious' tools come in so few colours.

Yes penguins I agree with that.
It's the fake girlyfying of things that I don't like (I think). Which is (IMO) all about: a. Selling more stuff and b. saying that being a girl is about being decorative.
My DM bought my DS that "stories for boys" book when he was tiny. I was a bit and then I read it and it was great and terrible at the same time. The knights were better than the princess stories I had as a child. There was a sense of adventure and self determinism (possibly not an accurate historical depiction) about the knights rather than the "waiting to be rescued" activities of a princess (young girl) or bitter twisted old witch (older/ past it woman) options for females in fiction.
So I am really pleased to have these other options now for my DCs. I will get them for DS so he can set the standard for miniature feminists in our home. Then read them to DD too.

Sorry, there is a third point. In some ways, a pink-ified product is often worse for being pink.

A pink globe is bloody ridiculous. The boys get blue, green, brown. You know a globe. The girl version is a fake pink globe. To me, that product has been made worse by pinkifying it.

Hmmm, see I moan about 'pink tat' for my girls. But in two specific regards:

1. There is a certain strand of retail which thinks you can make a product as badly, as insubstantially, as shonkily as you like, but if you stick a princess on the front you'll be fine. That annoys me.

1. The assumption by certain female relatives that, if it is pink and princessey it is perfect for a girl. Any girl. Mine don't much mind if a rucksack is pink with princesses, but they aren't into princesses. Dressing up outfits are a waste of everyone's money. But somehow it is assumed that, it is pink and covered in princesses, it is the perfect present for any girl.

I don't think Pictishis blaming feminism, and I have picked up on the same feeling that pink/sparkly etc is to be sneered at. And there is a 'my girl likes...(anything precoeved as male) to be good attitude.
The pink princess cultireis derided, people complain about 'pinkification' and there is the pinkstinks campaign etc.

I don't actually like pink that much ,myself and we I had dd (after four boys) I made it clear I did not want to be inundated by pink! Dd does wear some pink and so does ds3! But we dotn have many pink toys tbf, we do have my little ponies actually, gifted by a friend as her dd had outgrown them. And I a sure as my dd gets older she will make her own choices. But I get lots of comments still about how my house will now end up filled with "pink tat"(not my words) etc and there is a general feeling that all things pink are seen as less than and inferior. Hence why its not OK for boys to like them.

I would say that lots of toddlers naturally like pink and sparkles, the magpie effect but then its conditioned out of boys, girls carry on with it, hell its hard to avoid! But it is not seen as a positive thing, but it is seen as positive for a girl to like 'boy' things.and then the converse is true that its not OK for a boy to like girls things.

See the thread entitled 'booby barbie' re a swimming teacher giving boys a barbie doll as the booby prize of they are bad at swimming...

Zog is brilliant. "Dont' rescue me, I won't go back, to being a princess. And prancing round the palace in a silly frilly dress." Not because there's anything wrong with the frilly dress, but because she wants to be a doctor .

In your OP you say: "I sometimes wonder if, in the quest for equality, we sometimes go too far the other way, and heap scorn upon girls who want to be girly?"

Thanks pictish

I don't think women's liberation is about equality or choice.

Equality is false if (e.g.) equality is about sameness which leads to women should not get maternity leave because men don't get it or "why can't I punch a woman if I can punch a man?".

Choice is false because it is constrained by our cultural, social and personal expectations and obligations.

We make choices based on what is presented to us (pink vs. blue for kids) and also based on things outside our personal benefit, particularly when it comes to our children and family.

pictish this thread annoys me because I don't think we're necessarily that different in thinking that children should be free to be themselves but you seem to be positing that feminists/feminism is the problem and can't accept that.

Thanks noblegiraffe

Zog by Julia Donaldson has the princess becoming a dragon doctor, and refusing to be rescued.

Oh, and please could someone recommend some powerful princess type stories I can introduce my DCs to?

I agree with tethersend and others who suggest the problem lies largely (on MN and in RL tbh) in that "conventionally female" products and activities are seen as "lesser" (20wkbaby).

Also, the consumerism thing is true IMHO. Retailers can sell mo of a doll/ kitchen/ BBQ if there are two versions (pink and blue) of the same thing.
It's a tough one for parents (well, for me anyway) because it is complex. And I think the fact that I am an older mum (in my 40s) means I'm possibly more influenced by the old fashioned ideals of the 70s.
My DS is older than my DD. she wears lots of his clothes. Some ppl have remarked how it's ok "that way round" but that if if he had come second, it we, it wouldn't be ok for him to wear her old clothes. I find myself both agreeing with and being troubled by these statements.
So much of this is about "choosing" from the available. I am prty "feminine" My clothes are definitely a woman's clothes but I don't wear pink jeans and pink coats. I don't have a pink car or a pink televisioj.
I think there's a real difference between a sparkly pink party dress or tutu and a pink law mower (well, apart from the obvious, that they are different things entirely). Some things a sort of meant to be sparkly and pink.
Anyway I am waffling. Sorry.
We can only choose from what's available. And also, my DCs are a bit young to choose freely in a shop (although ds has chosen a pink car as his favourite recently, which was fine of course) It would take some real deliberate determination to go to the girl section to pick him out some clothes to choose from, and vice versa for my dd.
I admit that when I see a little girl who is always and entirely deluged with pink, all the time and seems unable to have anything that is not pink I do find it a bit.... Contrived? Icky? I don't know. It doesn't sit well with me. Because I don't truly believe that all those things are her choice, other than her choosing to choose the girly thing.
A pink and glittery BBQ is in some ways "lesser" than a grey or black BBQ because it sort of says "this is for a girl, it needs to pretty"

Right pink dinosaurs we can do, certainly in the states and for a bit more money than I'd like to spend, but they do exist, maybe there are UK sites like this one? www.amightygirl.com/clothing?clothing_themes=156

I'd personally not get the "Girls Like Dinosaurs Too" one myself because its a bit about making a point rather than just having a pink dinosaur but there are others.

I loved dinosaurs as a child, I loved all kinds of animals. I find it a bit weird that bugs/dogs/dinosaurs apparently for boys, and butterflies/cats/owls for girls. Meh, I like them all and I'm certainly going to encourage my child/ren to as well.

My DS is just small (14 months) but I try to think about these issues now to best support him in a variety of interests and to let him choose from as many colours as possible. :)

If she was that is relevant how exactly?

Pictish you know how I feel on this issue, the whole girl/boy divide in otys, clothing etc really pisses me off!

The kinder egg thread is relevant to this, some of us trying tlk explain how oi think this culture of pink/blue is actually damaging to our children, stereotypingy them and putting them in a box, as you know my ds3 likes all things pink, purple, sparkly and fairies, he still plays with them etc and wears his purple t shirts etc but he has def moderated himself and even tried to make himself play football etc as he feels the need to fit in. Thankfully he has a few good friends who are not 'stereotypical' boys iykwim and he so freidns with lots of girls as well, but as heahs got older its been a niggly issue and he knows we think the gender marketing etc is crap but like most children he wants to 'fit in'.

Ds4 at five is has very muched swalowed the whole pink is for girls and will say that so girly or that is for boys, despite us telling him NO that is not the case, it started at pre school but def by the end of reception he had got the pink/blue message loud and clear :( dp thankfully agrees with me and the other evening when ds4 kicked up a fuss about having a 'girly' plate at dinner time, he made a point of using a pink, flowery plate himself (those plastic kids plates, we had some nice rainbow ones but mil bought pink, flowery ones for dd...)

My dd is too young to be bothered to much by clothes but she has recently got really into dolls and carries one about with her and there have been lots of comments about how she is 'such a girl'..no she is a toddler, who likes dinosaurs amns train track and dolls and crafty stuff, very similar to her brothers at that age, but so many people have said to me how girls innately like dolls. It will be interesting to see how her own taste and choices develop as she gets older, I get comments from how she will be a 'tomboy' as she aha four brothers, to people saying she will be a real 'girly girl' for the same reason.

Pink/sparkly etc is fine but it needs to be fine for boys as well! Yet time and again on mnet you get posters asking as they a re concerned their five yr old son wants a 'girly' bag or lunch box and poster say encourage him to have something diff so he doesn't get picked on etc, and we should not let them like it or steer them in other directions so they don't get bullied... NOO we need to deal with the bullying.

It baffles me that at a time where we have equality laws and we are supposedly moving forward and vale equality ie in the workforce etc we have actually gone backwards with regards to our children and these outdated stereotypes are being reinforced on our children more than they ever have been. It's got worse since I had ds1 (14) there was not so much of the pink/blue divide when he was little.

I guess you keep on as you are, letting her k ow she can choose and giving her a variety of choice and making sure as she gets older she understands your views.

Weren't you advocating banning gossip mags on another thread?

I say let her follow her heart and go with whatever she likes to wear :)

Although I do agree with bonsoir's first post.

What it is is beautiful

Making everything pink or blue also makes it more difficult for families to reuse or hand me down clothes or toys from boys to girls or vice versa. Most families are smaller now and could very conceivably only buy one set of most stuff and reuse most of it. There are lots more selling opportunities if everything is divided into "for boys" or "for girls". This is expanding into things kids don't even interact with like pushchairs and nursery furniture, all of which would "need" to be replaced if DC2 is the other sex.

I've just finished listening to her too Errol (was coming to post on here, again, about a R4 programme) she was brilliant.

The Radio4 comedy on at the moment is Bridget Christie who was just now satirizing bic's biros specially designed for women. Catch it on Listen Again.

The thing with marketing is that it is in their interest to do gender specific stuff. It does put consumers into boxes very early on and these consumers are then much easier to talk to because they are so stereotyped.

And tbh it's working. Everything is getting gender specific, not just with children but also with adults.