Am I wrong to let my daughter enjoy being girly then?

Yep that's how I read it.

It was a bit of an unfortunate start to the thread.

But we're past that now, aren't we?

I think maybe others read that (and I did too) as you agree with her that MN has a distasteful strand of radical feminism.

But I am probably reacting to the usual clever stirring-stick option Bonsoir takes.

Sorry, what colour the toys are to be clear.

Well I made an attempt to explain why Pictish.

Anyway, moving on, I think one thing to be borne in mind is that lots of "boys' toys" actually teach more highly regarded life skills than those taught by "girls' toys".

There's been quite a bit of evidence to suggest that boys' toys teach more hand-eye co-ordination, problem solving skills, spatial awareness, maths skills etc., while girls' toys teach story telling, role play etc. So when they get to school, guess what? The skills that many of them have developed, conform to gender stereotypes, leading teachers and parents to declare that "it's just naycher innit, it's there even when they're 5 and haven't had time to be indoctrinated (er... )". And they don't make the connection that guess what, they've already had 5 whole years, a number of life-stages in the life of a child, having their skills developed by the toys they're given and the behaviour they're socialised towards. The adults then put it down to inherent ability (blue brain, pink brain) and as they get older unconsciously nudge them towards the subjects they're good at, believing that they're good at them because of inherent ability, not because of having been socialised into being good at them.

That's far more of a problem than what colour they are IMO.

I think bonsoir is posting as bonsoir likes to post.

But I didn't take pictish as heaping blame on feminists, possibly because I think I have had similar experiences to her and my mum is probably quite like her MIL. My mum would not call herself a feminist, she is one of those 'oh, but really it's all pretty equal now' types and she would see it as part of that, that she'd mock 'girliness' and 'pinkification'.

It is a problem - not because it's bad for women to be equal (!), but because mocking stereotypically feminine things isn't really helping.

I think we're probably talking at complete cross purposes: you said that 'that' was how your mother raised you - i.e not being allowed those things in a way that seemed to say it was detrimental and I read it as saying that other posters on here were advocating it and you disagreed with it.
I didn't 'launch' into anything - just queried it based on my interpretation.

Me neither, Pictish, all seems a bit touchy round these parts.

Ironically - I hadn't even bothered to read the thread and was only responding to the OP, which makes it doubly amusing that I was apparently commenting any anything the FWR 'usuals' had said.

I'm buggering off back to Style and Beauty before I get a bollocking here though!

Um, why did you read it like that? I was relating an experience - not commenting on anything the 'usuals' on FWR (whoever they are?) have said.

Not sure why you launched into that, actually.

That's how I read your first sentence (the one I quoted).

sorry, left off the last bit: it's not saying deny them certain toys/colours but allow girls and boys access to all the toys and books and games.

where did I say anyone was advocating doing that, WoTmania?

I have a 5 year old pink princess. She used to be obsessed with Thomas. Yes tv probably has influenced her a bit, but she does have other interest and used to go to foootball training.

I've embraced what she likes but she definately doesn't get it from me. She doesn't wear much pink because she chooses clothes that are like Mummy.lol.

I am just pleased she still likes toys really, some kids we know are only interested in computer games.

'My Mum raised me like this - wouldn't let me have dolls, Barbies, wear pink, I hardly had any dresses.' Where is anyone advocating that on this thread (or on the FWR board?)?
All that I'm seeing from the 'usuals' of FWR is: let's treat all of our children equally. Let's tell girls and boys that they are as good as each other. No one, so far has said 'ban them from having pink clothes, barbies, dolls and dress and force them to climb trees'

I don't care if someone else buys them Barbies, I'm just not spending my money on that tat - same as I won't buy them 'doggy doo' even though they've been asking for 18 months

Not buying them Barbies is the same kind of thing though Mystic

I don't deny my kids anything. I just don't join in the chorus pushing them at them, family and friends will do all that. In much the same way I don't buy sweets, plenty of relatives will so they are not deprived. they will get enough opportunities from the world at large to indulge their tastes for pink sparkes and chocolate

Grim humourless mummy gives them the opportunity to indulge their hankerings for broccolli and worthy ecofriendly sustainable wood gender neutral brain development toys.

I won't buy them Barbies though!

someone else is bound to buy some for them - just wait till they have birthday parties aged 4/5/6.

Becuase tools are serious men's stuff for getting the job done, not not silly girls posing and giggling and making a bit of a stab at it. fair play to them for trying!
They don't make ironing boards in dark steel with chrome finishes with Crease Beast written on them either.

My Mum raised me like this - wouldn't let me have dolls, Barbies, wear pink, I hardly had any dresses.

Did it affect me? I think it fundamentally undermined my feelings of feminitity, actually. Being told all the time that I shouldn't try to look 'nice' meant that I still feel stupid now when I get dressed up.

My DDs are allowed as much pink princessy stuff as they fancy - one embraces it, the other couldn't care less. I see it as a passing stage, tbh.

I won't buy them Barbies though!

Oops, sorry for the essay

I think the phrase "too far the other way" is never going to be positively received tbh. It smacks of "it's all gorn too far..." And earlier on in the thread there was a really unpleasant sneery tone (possibly not from you Pictish, I can't be arsed to go back and see who from and I don't think that would be a particularly constructive/ interesting thing to do anyway as I'm not interested in personalising this sort of stuff) which implied that nasty feminist mothers are denying their DD's the chance to be themselves while those who glory in their DD's pinkness, are much better mothers because they're accepting their DD's real selves. It disgusted me tbh.

Feminist mothers are incredibly conscious of how limited the prescribed gender norms are for both their sons and their daughters. In my case, particularly for their sons actually - I personally have found that my DD has more opportunities for self-expression than my DS, precisely because a girl who does "boy's" stuff trades up, while a boy who does "girl's" stuff trades down and gets laughed at or actually bullied, because girl's stuff is shit, because girls are shit. I remember my uncle (OK he's an arse) demanding that I hide a toy ironing board from DS when he was about 2, presumably because he thought he might "catch the gay" or something . Wanker. So when goady posts imply that anyone feminist is somehow denying their child self-expression when actually it's the people around us who gender-police our DC's - and particularly our boy's - behaviour most, it is incredibly offensive. Just putting that out there in case anyone might is interested in finding out how they might inadvertently offend someone without meaning to.

Having said that, I do think there's an issue with the shitting on girl's stuff - I have a slight problem with the pink stinks campaign because although I agree with its aims, the immediate tone of it is that girl's stuff is shit - you have to look a little deeper to see that that's not what they're saying, but most people don't look further than the headlines.

And also Penguins is right - there are some instances where pinkifying something is making it shit, also-ran, othering - the real mccoy is not pink and the real mccoy isn't for little girls, here, look, have this second-class pink version.

But I agree with Spiritedwolf as well - there is no reason tools shouldn't be made with pink handles - or red, purple, turquoise with flowers on etc. But why aren't they marketed at men when they are?

My dd used to love pink, sparkly, girly stuff. She grew out of it (encouraged by me!) at about age 6 and is now (age 8)very anti-girly stuff and very aware of her right/ability to do anything boys do. I'm glad that phase has gone, and proud that she already has that assertiveness, but I sort of feel a little guilty about the fact that I nudged her quite vigorously in one direction.