The Feminist Pub is Open - Chat, Rant, or pull up a chair here!

Oh, I think there can be little doubt that AF has been targeted.
From that point of view a NC would maybe allow her to continue her support (she'd be SO recognisable by style and sense anyway ) without setting off alarm bells on other sites whenever she posts?

I am glad to hear her 'ban' is for a week and not longterm.

However, I do think this is about a bigger issue than 'just' AF (much as I lufs her even when I disagree with her) - it's about what values this site supports IMO.

Re provocation: I agree that it is quite dangerous allowing 'provocation' as an excuse for the inexcusable (there is usually 2 children told off in this house... and I reward 'walking away' quite heavily), but I think the Talk Guidelines have become a bit wussy.
I think "Your opinions are offensive" should be allowed. Not the "Fuck off" maybe. Also "I think you are lying" seems perfectly civil to me - but ought to be followed up by pressing the report button.

Personally, I am quite good at walking away and I wish a lot of trolls and provocateurs wouldn't be fed quite so much. The only time my feelings have been hurt on MN was when I felt stupid for having been sucked in by a troll's story, but no real harm was done. I recognise that I come from quite a strong place though and shudder to think what this kind of thing can do to people living with abuse of mental health problems.
I think it is very, very dangerous to consider any online site as 'safe' - we could all be hairy truckers after all. At the same time I know how valuable online support can be for people who have nobody in RL so I try v hard not to post anything that I would not say out loud in RL and have 'kind' as my default position (unless posting on sweaty threads - I like a bit of recreational swearing ).
IMVHO people should be turfed off for being unkind, I really do.
It's one thing to say "I really don't like your baby name" and quite another to say "You must be fucking stupid to inflict that name on your poor child". For instance.

Sorry for the essay this early in the morning...

Fair point.

It's hard to be so controlled all the time - they play on te fact that we all have a snapping point.

Someone said yesterday that she is named on particular sites. If so, it looks like she was targetted.

Of course the fact that reg MNers have reported her too on occasion is allowing people to let the 'targetters' off the hook. You can see there are two lots there, the ordinary decent MNer who clashed and just doesn't like her - fair enough - and the nasty little gleeful type gloating away.

I don't think I did, I was just following up your point.

I would like to know what happened. I think they thing is, if you hold your temper you can often be very direct without actually being 'deletion rude' IYSWIM. I know how hard that can be.

penguins you put that much better than I.
I am intrigued though as to what happened.
And I hope she comes back.

By the way, I do agree with Kick - you can normally shut down and cut off pretty bluntly whilst staying the right side of deletion though. And of course then your post stands, rather than it looking like the poor MRA was picked on so unfairly that the attacks had to be deleted...

I can't comment on AF specifically, especially since I didn't see what she said.

But on the wider topic of provocation, at a feminist level provocation is something I have struggled with massively given its usage in domestic violence cases.

As has been pointed out "I was provoked" is often used as a defence by violent men. In an 'everyday' sense it is used by domestic abusers to say, for example, "She nagged me, so I thumped her. I was provoked". In law, it has been even more shocking. Provocation was often a mitigating factor in male murders (I discovered she was having an affair, so I strangled her) but rarely successful for women (He beat me for 20 years and one day I stabbed him in his sleep) as so often the women couldn't show that she responded immediately and in the heat of the moment to the provocation - for the obvious reason that she was physically weaker.

I do, of course, understand that responding to provocation online by calling a twat a twat isn't the same thing. But I still find it difficult to say that immediate lashing out is a mitigating factor.

Good post, kickass.

It's only for a week, LRD, though that wasn't clear last night.

I do sympathise. I've had deletions for biting back. It's hard sometimes.

She'll be back. And I look forward to reading her posts again. I think heron nonsense approach to relationship advice is very refreshing.
It's an interesting point you make kickass about whether to target punishment towards the agent provocateur rather than the person who retaliates. I have seen many posts on MN that are so goady as to be considered (IMHO) offensive but don't meet the criteria for deletion, when I feel they should.
The trouble is that the definition of provocation is subjective.
And I guess We, as civilised ppl should be able to "walk away" from goading.
With particular reference to this FWR board, I feel the need to mention that plenty of male aggressors have tried the defence of being provoked into violent behaviour by a "nagging wife" for example.

This site will be a poorer place without AnyFucker, her wisdom and empathy is legendary. I don't know how many people she's helped get out of shit situations, and I understand the biting back at goady fuckers, I've done that too and been deleted. I'm lucky though, unlike her I'm pretty anonymous, I haven't had the amount of shit flung at me as she has.

Wow...you go away for a few days and then...just wow.

Sharing an anecdote-at the library with DD today, a dad and his son were in the children's area, playing/reading etc.

A girl, maybe 10, asked the dad where his wife was, if the llittle boy had a mother, and why wasn't she with him.

He handled himself well, fwiw. And I don't really know if the girl was being smart or genuinely curious, but it made me wonder when the hell it'll be "normal" for fathers to, yknow, spend time with their children

See, I am more and more convinced that as a society we punish the person who retaliates in a situation of conflict, rather than expending the energy by seeking out the initiator. So often we tell kids that 'they started it' isn't justification for retaliation, or that they should get help bit hit back. But you know what, that just gives the bullies an opening where they know they can goad and get away with it Scott free.

I am starting to come to the conclusion that as soon as someone starts to goad in any way, then it is perfectly right to just shut them down and cut them off. Then we don't need to be polite to them. A few innocent people might have their feelings hurt with an abrupt response, but presumably they will learn to phrase questions more appropriately and the goady fuckers will just fuck off.

And yes to whoever asked, it appears that dad's teacher thinks that as the mother it is my job to do all the parenting. Now I work in the same school so the majority of it does end up being me, but I do work full time, so dh sometimes drives across town and does some hands on parenting while I work. How I am meant to be giving parent teacher conferences at the same time as being a parent I am not sure. But obviously having a vagina makes it my job to do that.

Really, meglet? FFS!

Time for bed. Night all.

I need to read FWR more often, it's slipped off my radar a bit.

Not only am I annoyed with AF's banning, I've just realised the DC's kids dental floss from Boots comes in either pink or blue.

:(

There sure has been a sustained attack on FWR and relationships very recently - by the creepier MRA type. Sounds like it's not MRA permanent ban though?

Hope she's back soon.

So often everyone politely entertains goading posters and after a few pages of to and fro discussion she appears and calls bull shit. It's so often needed and she does it so eloquently.

Apparently got annoyed at some MRA baiting her.

But what did she actually do this time?