Sex: My British Job. Channel 4

Another for the "cut out and keep" series on prohibitionist lies around prostitution as collated by Grennie, this time on the 90% want out statistic

What is the claim? A global study of prostitution found that 9 out of 10 women in prostitution would like to exit if they could (Farley, 2003here).

What is the source of the claim? This claim (citing Farley 1993) is often made in the prohibitionist literature-the objective is doubtless to demonstrate that prostitution is so awful that the vast majority want to leave (some prohibitionists add “immediately” or say “escape”)

Comment:
Two problems characterize the generalization that the large majority of women wish to “escape” prostitution. The first concerns the generalization of findings about the experiences of some of the most marginalized street prostitutes to prostitution as a whole. The second concerns the translation of a respondent’s desire to “leave” prostitution – the relatively neutral term that appears to have been used on the Farley questionnaire – into a desire to “escape” it, a term that better fits prohibitionist rhetoric, which treats all prostitution as “sexual slavery.” Because Farley refuses to release her research instruments, it is difficult to ascertain exactly how the question about “leaving” was asked. For example, while some people may wish to leave prostitution, they may nevertheless prefer prostitution to the low paid “shit work” that may be their only alternative, from which prostitution represents "escape," the least-bad alternative to minimum-wage manual or service work, prostitution may be their preferred option because of the relative autonomy and better pay it affords.

The window of opportunity for a person to engage in sex work may also have something to do with their desire to move on. Like some other forms of work, the earning potential of adults who sell sex declines with age. Survey samples indicate that the majority of street sex workers are between 16 and 26 years of age in which case decreasing earning power may partly explain a person’s desire to “leave” prostitution at some point. The same may be true of men and women working in low-paid agricultural work, manufacturing, and other low-paid service jobs where work experience – time on the job – does not usually increase the rate at which they are paid. To say that people make a “choice” to do any of these jobs does not necessarily mean they are “happy hookers” or happy labourers, although some of them may be-they are choosing between alternatives that are open to them.

What is the truth?

A survey of sexworkers (mostly in legal brothels) in Victoria Australia in 1996 (Pyett et al 1996 Who works in the sex industry in Australia? a profile of female prostitutes in Australia Aust N Z J Public Health 1996; 20: 431-3 here found (p42) that ^about two-thirds (65 per cent) saw themselves staying in sex work for between six months and two years,
while 14 per cent saw themselves staying for five years or more, 8 per cent for only a month and 13 per cent did not know. Nearly half the women (45 per cent) said they would change their occupation if they could, 29 per cent said they would not and 26 per cent did not know^

In 2007 a survey in Queensland Australia survey the question asked (Seib C 2007 Health, well - being and sexual violence among female sex workers: A comparative study here Q95 p190 Right now would you like to leave the sex industry? 33% said they would ( a higher proportion of street workers wished to leave). The same survey reported that 63% agreed with the statement If I had to do it again I’d definitely choose a job like I had now (p117-118) and over 70% were satisfied or very satisfied with their job, a higher level of satisfaction then a sample of psychiatric nurses. Overall, the sex workers reported roughly equivalent job satisfaction to Australian women (p iii).

A survey in 2008 of those working in brothels in Victoria Australia Groves J et al. Sex workers working within a legalised industry: Their side of the story Sex Transm Infect 2008;84:393–4 . here notes The findings of this study indicate that women working in licensed Victorian brothels come from a diverse range of backgrounds and circumstances and hold varying attitudes towards working in the sex industry. Many women have actively chosen this occupation based on the financial rewards and flexibility it offers. Like many other women, these women are pursuing further education or training, supporting families, or striving to reach financial goals. Many of these women do not express a desire to leave the sex industry. infact 47% expressed a desire to leave the industry at some stage (table 1 p394)

A report looking at prostitution in New Zealand published in 2008 ( Report of the prostitution Law review committe of the operation of the Prostitution Reform Act 2003 here showed (table 13 p 65) that only 20% of sex workers intended to quit within a year. The researchers comment (p 65) Most of the participants in the qualitative interviews also expressed some uncertainty about their expected length of stay in the industry. Younger participants who worked in the managed sector (i.e. brothel or escort) tended to describe working to a plan, such as working to stay overseas...Few street-based workers discussed how long they would remain in the sex industry. Street -based workers who did, described leaving when they could turn their life around, such as when they could get on a drug rehabilitation programme.

A large survey in Denmark published in 2011 ( Prostitution i Danmark here) found that prostitutes when asked whether they had considered stopping selling sex in the next year 55% overall said no ( fig. 11.1 p 242), the highest proportion wishing to quit were street prostitutes ( 94% wishing to leave within a year) the lowest were brothel prostitutes where one third wished to leave in a year.

Conclusion:
The papers referenced above show that the claim that 9 out of 10 women would leave sex work if they could, is an oversimplification. Probably no prostitute wants to work for ever, but as shown above only minority of indoor workers (who after all are the majority of prostitutes) want to leave immediately or within a year. The data produced by Farley is more in line with surveys of street workers (and these were the majority of her sample). So we see once again the generalization by prohibitionists of the results from street work or those in desperate circumstances to represent the views of all prostitutes. It is simply not true to say that 90% want to leave-or leave immediately (not even Farley makes that claim).

Oh hello inwinoweritas have you been to King's Cross and gathered some experience as someone else suggested yet?

No, not an article of faith. Faith implies belief without analysis. I do not agree with everything every radical feminist author has said. I analyse their argument and look at the evidence they present, and decide whether I agree with it or not.

And radfem isn 't an insult you know.

Greenie
You might agree with McKinnon-that is an article of your faith- but as I demonstrate upthread your so-called" facts " about prostitution are wrong. It is a question of your believe not evidence for you and your radfem chums

I agree with Catherine MacKinnon that rape is about power and violence to the women being raped or prostituted. But to the men it is about power and sex.

The "You ladies don't understand Mysterious Male Sexuality" comments from Buntress would be really funny if the thread was more lighthearted and not about abuse in prostitution.

That appears to be the root of this problem.

Like I give an inch of a flying kick what you think about my argument.

A moot trial/sixth-form debating society argument if ever I heard one.

Waaaaah!

This is a thread full of women being exploited and abused, but what about me and my man feeeelings!

How could you women be so unkind and judgemental?

Plus, you are lying about prostitution being awful, women love it really and the punters are just mysterious and not at all abusive.

Waaaaah!

Not being a woman, I don't see how you can claim with such blithe confidence that selling sex is just like serving food.

“Not being a woman”

As a male of the species, I take exception to that point. The whole feminist anti-prostitution (and anti-porn) argument is based on a female view of what men think and feel. It seems to be acceptable for women (including Dworkin) to make statements “with blithe confidence” on male sexuality but not for men to do the same with regard to female sexuality. In fact, neither sex really knows and understands the sexual feelings of the opposite sex. Most men would fail utterly to relate to some of the female claims about male sexuality and behaviour expressed here and would find others incomprehensible.

Ah, I love the way you can identify a male poster on this board: they post their opinion as indisputable fact

Again, the same point, and I find this hypocritical, given that the opinions suggesting that men do not feel desire in certain circumstances or are “exercising power” are also posted as indisputable fact.

despite the fact that rape and prostitution are nothing to do with desire or attraction and all about power and entitlement

“the fact”

• the opinion, surely? I share the opinion that rape is to do with power. In fact, I have thought that for decades, before it became a common belief, but I disagree that the visiting (by men) of prostitutes has anything to do with the exertion of power, or perceived power.

Women find some aspects of male sexuality mysterious and incomprehensible and try to fill the void with these theories. Men do the same with regard to some aspects of female sexuality.

The only substantive anti-porn/anti-prostitution argument is that women, who constitute about 50% of society, do not, in general, subjectively like the existence of these phenomena and that perhaps men ought to give some consideration to this fact alone, but there is no point in asking men to pay lip-service to invalid theories.

There just isn't any attraction, otherwise money wouldn't be involved.
Many "sex workers" develop contempt for their male customers. They get the experience and see the worst of behaviours from scummy men and be used by them.

Only basing this some people's personal stories but it's probably common. How could it not be?

I can well imagine that most prostitutes don't even like men, let alone fancy them. I certainly wouldn't like or respect any man who feels he has the right to pay to rape another human being.

That comment shows what pro prostitution men think of women.

And what they think is that we are for fucking. For being penetrated by men, any and all men. It is an attitude that is engrained in rape culture - if a woman has fucked one man that makes her fuckable by all men. Because that is what we are for. This is misogyny, real misogyny rooted in contempt for women and a sense of male superiority because men have human status and women have fuck unit status (thanks for that excellent turn of phrase flora).

It is unusual for a man to show his contempt for and othering of women quite as plainly as wino does. Doesn't make for very interesting reading though.

Yes that comment, more than anything else, says it all.

And the utter complacency of his 'I don't fancy men' comment is quite something.

Yes, that was my jaw on floor moment too. I'm wondering how it is supposed to be different for a prostitute who most likely does not fancy the hundreds of men she "services"? Or does he assume that because the prostitute is a woman and her client a man she must "fancy" them all? The would be a male entitlement moment.

Never mind wino's teach yourself cut and pasting lessons, the sheer lack of any insight on his part is.... sorry, I'm at a lost to describe an attitude like that.

As Beachcomber says wino - get yourself down to King's Cross and have the joyful experience of penetration for money by people you don't fancy, then come back and pontificate about the business.

Wow that comment.
"Don't fancy men" huh.
Unlike female prostitutes, who only sleep with costumers who they sexually desire. Right?

Of course buying sexual access to a woman is an act of misogyny. There is nothing lunatic about that idea nor about Andrea Dworkin's writings and analysis. She was a brilliant original thinker with a clarity of thought and expression which was quite exceptional.

Buying sexual access to a woman is an act of male entitlement and privilege. It is an act of sexual violence and often rape. It is an act of male dominance which benefits from society awarding women the status of the sex class.

Talking to a man who declares otherwise is a waste of time.

Wino is just here to mansplain to the laydeez that some of our sisters should be made available for entitled men to fuck. Because that is what women are for and entitled fucking is more important to some men than women's humanity.

And the utter complacency of his 'I don't fancy men' comment is quite something. Sell your arse down Kings Cross for a few months wino and then come back and argue for women being made sexually available to all comers as a nonharmful non misogynistic activity. Punting is a gendered activity, in case you hadn't noticed, so to understand the experience of the prostituted woman involves men, penises and penetration. (Usually with people you don't fancy. Duuuhhh, this is why they are paying you.)

All your cutting and pasting may become as meaningless to you as it is to us once you have got a few hundred punters under your belt.

Arguing for other people to sell sexual access to their bodies as 'work' when one is not willing to do it oneself is hypocritical and reeks of the worst kind of privilege. And the rude, condescending tone used to set the laydeez right on OUR oppression is just typical - clearing exposing how superior you think you are to women is akin to waving a red flag with 'misogynist here' written on it wino.

And your posts are too long, badly formatted, repetitive and lacking in original thought. We often get men on here thinking what they have to say is so most excellent that they can take up a huge amount of space on a thread. No attempt whatsoever being made to hide a sense of superiority and entitlement is very common in male posters on here. It is quite uncanny.

*according to you.