Sex: My British Job. Channel 4

Logic fail: "Random surveys are not possible with hidden populations like prostitutes so the next best thing is purposive sampling ( so you do a proper estimate of the proportion of the population of prostitutes in each sector ( street, brothel, flats or outcall escorts)." [my highlighting] Also, this ignores the experience of exited women.

Never mind that though, apparently it's okay to be concerned about the grim reality of many women in prostitution but heaven forfend you should use inappropriate statistics goodness no, we can't have that at all! At all costs, the sanctity of the blessed statistics (those approved by the pimp lobby) must be maintained. This is the most important aspect of the prostitution issue

Also, well said lala.

Well said YouMakeMeWannaLaLa.

PS sorry I don't see where I said the majority of the worlds prostitutes are happy hookers perhaps you could show me?

Beach you spout radfem bollocks. You read the dworkin quotation up tread I would like an explanation as to the logic behind the statement that in buying the services of a prostitute a man is expressing pure hatred of the woman. Since she is according to you such a brilliant and original mind there must be some logic there. Can you wimminsplain it to me?

But you did just equate women with beer wino. You speak about women as a consumable, a product, an item, as non-humans.

You have answered your own question about Dworkin.

And thanks for the mansplain on how to conduct a study. Save it for the pimp lobbies. Your assertion that the vast vast majority of the world's prostituted are happy hookers, is a fantasy. It is also identical to pimp and punter speak. It is the language of the trafficker, the man who has never had to examine his (male and most likely white) privilege, the misogynist, the deluded, the rich westerner - or the liar.

One fact that surely you are able to admit (hopefully without the need for an academic study) is that the vast vast majority of the world's prostituted are girls and women - when are you going to address that? Or don't you see it as a problem, in which case yo have just provided yourself with another answer to your question about Dworkin.

Oy vey ....

This idea that buying the services of a prostitute means that you hate them ( dworkin view) is hard to understand. If I go to a pub and buy a pint does that mean I hate beer?

And before you lot jump up and down and accuse me of equating beer with a women or some other miss representation I am not. Just wondering about dworkins' thought processes since she is such a brilliant and original thinker

Ahh the representative argument. The only way to know what is "representative" is a proper survey. Random surveys are not possible with hidden populations like prostitutes so the next best thing is purposive sampling ( so you do a proper estimate of the proportion of the population of prostitutes in each sector ( street, brothel, flats or outcall escorts). You then survey each category in depth, present the results for each separately and ( to get an overall picture weight each category to get the overall estimate). You then can tell what is a representative experience ( or as close as it is possible to get- the methodology and caveats are explained in the Danish and nz reports)

I am not "clinging" to what Minnie said-her views are echoed by many sex workers who are fed up with feminists telling them they are victims, their clients are vile misogynist rapists and that they have been coerced into their work by abusive pimps .

I am sure there are some as you describe whose situation is grim and if you are down among them it is hard to see the overall picture. But they are not representative or the majority as survey after survey have pointed out. And before you start the knee jerk that I am dismissing them or don't care -I do, but equally you have to realise try are the minority experience

And your clinging to Minnie's testimony as some sort of universal truth also speaks volumes. I'm glad that Minnie's experience of prostitution is an entirely positive one. But that doesn't make Minnie representative - it makes her lucky (apologies to you Minnie for speaking about you in the third person.)

I also know a lot of prostituted persons (mostly women and transpeople) because I volunteer at a drop in centre for the prostituted. None of them are happy hookers. Go figure...

I have very rarely come across a prostituted person who does not have someone living off their earnings (most often a man). Nearly all the people I meet at the centre have a history of abuse and or homelessness. They have all experienced poverty and the majority have substance issues. When we don't see a regular for a while we worry that they have been murdered, committed suicide, have been imprisoned or displaced by their pump/boyfriend or died of an overdose.

You should visit a place like that sometime.

And thanks for mansplaining that I am entitled to object to prostitution on political grounds, wino .

Gee thanks for allowing the laydeez to Hold Opinions.

The institution of prostitution, as it exists within male dominated society and the binary sexual hierarchy, is a human rights travesty.

Because the institution of prostitution is not the happy hooker. The institution of prostitution is pimping, trafficking, child abuse, exploitation, violent, dangerous, abusive, risky, rapey, predatory, entwined with organized crime and (this is the important bit, concentrate now) universally gendered .

It is intellectually dishonest to talk about prostitution in terms of the happy hooker, and the happy hooker only. It is also either stupid or extremely cynical. Your argument totally ignores most prostituted persons (especially those in countries like India, Thailand, South Africa, etc.). Your argument fails utterly to address the undeniably gendered paradigm of prostitution. In fact you don't really have an argument other than "some women say they don't mind consenting to entitled fucks."

(And feminists who are against prostitution call themselves abolitionists not prohibitionists. The difference is important and maybe one you should think about. Calling us prohibitionists speaks volumes - I wonder if you can figure out why...)

But if anyone is distorting "facts" by which I take it you mean studies, it is you wino.

You also seem unable to discuss prostitution other than in terms of statistics. Perhaps because you are a man, and therefore have no framework with which to empathize with women having sex they don't want with men they do not desire. Like I said, sell your arse to all comers for a while and I expect you will gain better understanding than you have currently with all your studies (none of which show prostitution to be harmless for women).

Why are you so invested in arguing for others to be made sexually available to anyone who fancies an entitled fuck?

Oh dear, comprehension fail wino. I did not say no-one could choose to prostitute. I said your endless stats did not establish any single person who did choose it absent coercion, abuse (past or present), mental health problems, addiction or poverty. I also said that if such women do exist, I do not value that choice above the experience of women who are suffering in prostitution. I don't care whether your facts are better than some other fact (as I said on the other thread) because even your facts are unacceptable. You are simply quibbling about percentages and not managing that very well.

Minnehaha is an anonymous person behind a computer screen. If you think his or her statements have any evidentiary value... well, we already know your difficult grasping concepts of evidence.

What you are doing is showing how the pimp lobby uses dubious methodology and statistics to derail discussions of prostitution and how it affects women, to distract women from analysis and critical thinking of political matters.

wino, as has been pointed out time and time again, the studies you point us to are not objective or factual either. Posters here have they are biased, use dubious methodology and written by those with a vested interest in the sex industry (IUSW and so on) -in order to bolster the case for legalisation. In one case on the IM thread, beach pointed out that it (I think it was the Met study) didn't even draw the conclusion you claimed it did.

You are hoist by your own petard, as it were.

My point is that prohibitionists distort the facts to bolster their case. My point is that those who like flora think that no one can choose to prostitute are wrong. My point is that few are coerced , drugged or forced by poverty into prostitution so you are wrong-my point is that those who claim the happy hooker is a myth (or a tiny minority) are wrong. Minnehaha spoke from her 20 years of experience and the facts back her up. She is right and you are wrong-no wonder she is fed up with feminists trying to tell her how it is when she who knows,has her existence denied and the facts back her up

I know many of you have objections to prostitution, believe that there can be no equality while it exists-those objections are political and that's ok. You are entitled to hold those views what you are not entitled to do is distort the facts to make your case. What I am doing is showing up this distortion as the misrepresentation that it is

Wino. What is your point? Can you answer that in a couple of concise sentences?

Because where I'm reading from, it just sounds like you are saying that prostitution is okay dokey because men want entitled fucks and they are able to find women who consent to being entitledly fucked. End of analysis.

Again we have wino showing us he does not understand the meaning and purpose of evidence.

What are the facts or assertions you think your evidence proves or supports (even if we accepted it as credible and reliable, which I don't)? How is your evidence relevant to the issue of whether prostitution should be decriminalised?

If your assertion is that Melissa Farley and other abolitionists are using wrong statistics, so what? This has no relevance in and of itself.

If your assertion is that legalisation of prostitution makes women safe, your statistics on their face show that it does not work. The acceptable proportion of women who will not safer is a political issue which cannot be proven by evidence.

If your assertion is that women in prostitution are exercising agency, your evidence (a) deals only with a very narrow definition of agency and (b) acknowledges that there are some women in prostitution who do not exercise agency. The issue of the value of consent as a factor in determining whether something should be illegal or not is a political decision that cannot be proven by evidence.

The issue of whether sexual exploitation of women by men is misogynistic is a political issue which cannot be proven by evidence.

You are not even consistent in your obsessive trainspotterish approach to applying statistical analysis (badly) to women in prostitution. Your posts are peppered with your assumptions and myths about women in prostitution - that they are just more relaxed about sex, you suspect they prefer to be independent contractors.

Your posts are, however, evidence that you have a fundamental lack of understanding of the purpose of evidence and how it is used to support ideological and political matters. They are evidence that you understand neither credibility, reliability nor relevance.

Just an academic interest, then wino? Well I don't know know about anyone else - but I'm convinced

LaLa
I replied at length upthread about the protection of street sex workers –I discussed the situation in OZ at length and suggested managed zones might be part of the answer. Don’t keep asking the same question if you cannot be bothered to read the answer

No-no rape is acceptable as I have said countless times on this and the ~IM thread

I don’t think the mind-set of most punters differs from that of the average man since that is what they are. I don’t think they are misogynists on the whole although that is what some rad fems would like to paint them (Dworkin When men use women in prostitution, they are expressing a pure hatred for the female body speech at a symposium entitled "Prostitution: From Academia to Activism," sponsored by the Michigan Journal of Gender and Law at the University of Michigan Law School, October 31, 1992.) Nor do I think they harbour rape myths. There might be a tiny minority who do-or feel humiliated that they are paying for sex and take it out on the women but the vast majority-as prostitutes often say are pretty ordinary blokes

No I don’t use prostitutes but what difference would it make if I did?

Buffy

I replied AT LENGTH to your consent and organ post-read my post why don’t you? I think what you want me to say is that consent trumps in all circumstances. It depends-if an person wants to be killed and eaten and gives his consent (as happened in Germany) I would say consent does not trump, but if a guy of sound mind wants his dick nailed to a board (a case in the UK) it was found his consent did.

In prostitution in most cases the prostitute does give her consent-the consent may be constrained-she might be desperate for a fix-but usually the deal is sex for money. And its not rape as radfems like to claim-even if the woman may not desire her client I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire - Robin Morgan "Theory and Practice: Pornography and Rape" in "Going too Far," 1974. It’s a commercial exchange

I was probably a bit flip upthread when I said I don’t fancy men-what I meant is that I am heterosexual-as are most working girls who will see mainly male clients and only see women as part of a couple. Probably most prostitutes do not fancy their clients but fancy their money.

However there are exceptions Kontula A (2008) The sex worker and her pleaasure Current Sociology 2008 56: 605 here a small scale study of indoor workers in Finland, showed that the general assumption that sexworkers never enjoy the sex is untrue.

In 2008 a very large scale survey in New Zealand(almost a third of the estimated number of sex workers in the country responded) here
asked sex workers what was the reason for staying in the sex industry a surprising proportion 39% said they enjoyed the sex (table 15 p68)

The whole feminist anti-prostitution (and anti-porn) argument is based on a female view of what men think and feel.

It is not. It is about women (or certain groups of women in society) being set aside as the sex class - to be raped, demeaned, dehumanised purely because men feel entitled to pay to fuck them.