Sex: My British Job. Channel 4

wino does.

I don't think anyone can say that all prostitutes happy or sad, forced or willing, or are indifferent. I think the gender specific nature of it comes down to demand. I think if the demand was there for straight male pros there would be (willingly and unwillingly).
Does anyone think that legalising it and regulating it would be a positive step?

I don't see how you can disagree that prostitution is NOT a manifestation of male entitlement.

You can argue whether there is anything wrong/misogynistic/whatever but not that it exists in this context.

that all men are violent misogynists that all men are rapists

Wow. that's some accusation - I've not read anything like that here. I do not think that all men are anything, wino.

However, I do think that punters would have to be misogynistic to use women like that - presumably they try to buy into the happy hooker myth to assuage that a bit?

Answer my post in your own words if you would.

Lala
Because your objection is political-you believe that there can be no true equality while prostitution exists, that it is an example of male entitlement. Some of you think prostiution is" violence against women" and that the Prost prosTitution of one woman magically affects all, that all men are violent misogynists that all men are rapists.....mix and match which apply. You are entitled to your opinions what you are not entitled to do is play fast and loose with the facts or try to impose your views on others

a large proportion who are happy

Don't you see what you are saying?

And don't be annoying going on about stereotypes. You think this is all abstract to many of the posters on here. Not so. There are real people being hurt, and you are hiding them all with your tedious c&ping.

Flora
Not so I know of convenience surveys (such as farley's) where she surveys the most disadvantaged any generalises to all but the best shots at close to random surveys using purposive samples reach a different conclusion namely that those relatively content with their lot are not "as rare as hens teeth" but are a large proportion if not a majority of prostitutes- even if the street workers are not removed from the sample. And it's not because they support my views it's that they are a pretty close approximation to the truth, I know you find it unpalatable because it does not fit the radfem stereotype but tough- change your stereotype

It's not a fact. It's your interpretation of various surveys and your assessment of the degree to which they are representative which largely results from you taking on the parts that support your viewpoint and ignoring those that don't.

Beach
I am not generalising to all over the world or using minne's experience to do so. I am really talking about affluent westernised ( that includes Australia and nz) about which I know a bit. I don't know much about India or Cambodia and thailand.

What I know about the affluent countries is that prostitution is very varied , from pretty grim on the streets ( high incidence of drug addiction seems the norm) but indoors for many people they find the work no more demeaning or problematical than many other types of work. And I have frequently seen comments from those working indoors that they are fed up with feminists telling them how they are victims and how their lives are. And while you might acknowledge there are some who are ok with it you claim these are a tiny minority. Well how do you know? Because the biggest and most representative samples to date show that infact a large proportion and sometimes the majority are ok with it- you might not like it but that's a fact:

Minnehaha I was wondering something the other day and now you are here I can ask you. Do you mind men like wino using your testimony to generalize about prostitution all over the world?

I know it would piss me off.

Your experience (of 20 years if I remember correctly) has been very positive both for yourself and for all/most? of the other people you know in prostitution.

I'm glad for you that your experience has been so good, but as I said upthread, I think you have been lucky. I also think you must be remarkably resilient. Now whilst that is good for you and for the people you know who have a similar profile to you, surely you can see that your experience is not representative of prostitution all over the world. It would be rather a stretch for anyone to argue that your positive experience has much in common with a 12 year old girl in India or a trafficked Ukrainian women in Amsterdam or indeed any of the hundreds of people I have met who nearly all have pimps (in one form or another, often a boyfriend or partner) have been in extreme poverty and many of whom have substance abuse issues.

That resilient and lucky women like you exist, does not make these people disappear (or at least it shouldn't ). I think it is inhumane and dishonest in the extreme for people to pretend that it does.

Women for whom prostitution is a choice, freely and easily made, who entered the life as adults, have other opportunities available to them and who have no form of coercion whatsoever exercising of them, and for whom all punters behave well towards, are rare, vanishingly rare. It is bizarre to try to use these hens teeth like situations in order to generalize about a global institution which hurts so many girls and women and which is manifestly the most sexist institution that exists within a hugely sexist society. (Some would argue that it is on a par with marriage, which could be an interesting idea to explore in a thread if anyone is up for it...)

Don't know who you are minnehaha but you haven't distinguished yourself with quality posts so far so I'll file that comment in my "Don't Give A Fuck" folder.

I've just come in from a night with my fellow exploited and the one statement that really caughty my eye was Flora's - sorry dear, but you really don't get it

I am actually looking at one of wino's documents describing what excellent opportunities sex work provides for enterprising women who wish to maximise their agency, earning potential and exercise of choice through providing personal services of an intimate nature to a variety of clients within the context of locations which provide a marketing platform and the possibility of widening the customer base by working in a flexible team with peer support and training.

And I quote:

Danielle

Danielle began working in the industry at age 21. At the time she was homeless and living in her sister's living room with her young son. As she says "no money, no qualifications, no choice".

Danielle cites one of the advantages of the job is the freedom of being able to go for a smoke when she wants.

One of the women explains how she has been shown to look for signs of sexually transmitted disease in men and another woman talks about how all her extended family back in China depend on her earnings (she also said the main advantage of the job is that she doesn't need to speak English and that if she did speak good English she would do something else to earn money with which to support her family).

So it's all good in choicey choice land for those lucky gals. Makes you wonder why men aren't queuing up for a chance to seize similar opportunities for themselves. It seems really really unfair that such an area of riches and flexibility is so heavily female dominated. Smacks of sexism if you ask me. You'd have thought that the pro lobbies and MRAs would campaign heavily in this area for men to get a slice of the pie (I mean other than the slice they get as pimps and traffickers!).

I have asked him to address the gendered nature of prostitution several times on this thread. He just ignores me every time so I shall draw my own conclusions on that one.

Funnily enough, earlier today when I was reading the Donna Hughes document she talks about the fantasies that have been observed by councillors working with punters and she describes how punters are heavily invested in fantasizing that prostituted women choose to have sex with them and are all making pots of cash and happily investing in businesses and so on. (Apart from the sadistic bastards who get off on knowing the women hate it and are in distress.)

The myth of the happy hooker is very important to many of them because it spoils an entitled fuck if you know she hates it and is doing it because she has kids to feed/a habit/a pimp/nowhere to live.

wino You. Don't. Fucking. Get. It.

wino knows so little about academia he thinks all academics are perfect neutral observers without political motivations or value assumptions.

You will carry on in your dream world wino, patching together bits and pieces of surveys and papers to create the world as you wish it to be.

It's like Beach's post never even happened, isn't it wino. Just keep on hammering your point, and ignore everyone else's.

Once again Flora (post23 Oct 16:50:30) you are wrong . You accuse me of presenting “complete made up” stuff about some women using prostitution to save for a particular project or because it provides flexible working.

Here is just one example out of many I could cite that show you don't know what you are talking about; the 2009 report “Working in Victorian Brothels” (that is in the state of Victoria Australia where prostitution is legalized) here written by Sharon Pickering (Prof of Criminology Monash University credentials here, JaneMaree Maher (Prof Monash University in School of Political and social enquiry credentials here and Alison Gerard (now senior Lecturer in Justice studies at Charles Sturt University credentials here. None of them can be remotely described as part of the pimp/punter lobby.

The report contains many verbatim interviews with prostitutes working in both legal and unlicensed brothels. Look at section 3 beginning p 7 on worker experiences, and especially sections 3.4.1 and 3.4.2 -but I would recommend you read the entire report.

So (p 12) This income enables many workers not only to be financially independent, but also to work towards long-term goals such as saving for a small business, investing in property, travel, or paying for tertiary or technical studies. There follow a number of interviews supporting this point

(p13) Parents and students who have other non-negotiable commitments are likely to continue to find sex work an attractive option. Survey data from the Australian workforce indicates that flexibility is unevenly available and is a significant barrier to the employmentof mothers (OECD 2002). This is intensified when mothers are the sole carers of their children. In this employment context, sex work offers significant, clear benefits. This flexibility enables workers to balance their work in the industry with other commitments such as family responsibilities, education and employment in other industries.

There follow a number of verbatum quotes from sexworkers illustrating those points.

These authors published a paper in the academic literature which is more wide-ranging ( Maher JM et al 2012 Privileging work not sex: flexibility and employment in the sexual services industry Sociological Review 60, 654–675 (2012 here which discusses inter alia whether prostitution is sexwork and so on.

So Flora-is that "completely made up"-perhaps you will withdraw the accusation? Somehow I don't think you will