WHY do so many (it seems) men hate and fear women?

PS Of course we all can I hope "do" appreciate "beauty" - I like the look of some men and even women ha ha! I'd be worried if my date couldn't appreciate a beautiful woman.

But I meant "men who actually make the CHOICE to always be the one who doesn't get what he wants and then be resentful about it"

Chotter I think it's not "all" men

(which is why I referenced men with no sense of self. Men with a sense of self have their "life mission" - whatever it is - and just look for a compatible mate who likes them and vice versa and leave it at that! )

But often one sees chaps projecting their "life" disappointment ( "I lack purpose and I think I lack status amongst other men") onto obsessing over getting beautiful women.

One comes across guys on the dating scene who give the vibe of chasing amazing looking women who will not take them seriously and really see them as friends or an attention source.

(hey, she might accept dinner or some dates, even sleep with them, but in a while she'll abandon him for a 25 year old muscly Swede ).

Then they build up resentment towards the women in question for not "giving" them anything or desiring them in return?

I personally had guys I've met in a dating context say stuff like "I know you won't want to date me, but can we be "friends" and go out together?"

This definitely isn't for shared interests or genuine friendship or to "get" sex - just they like the look of my face or the "impression" it gives to other men if I'm out with them in an LBD ?

So rather than go for women who will accept them, they'd rather get the "friendship" scraps from women who won't

And I'm a "prettyish but well on the turn" mum of two, fuck knows what it must be like for really stunning 22 year old single girls!

I have a couple of questions about the women that men think they deserve. How do you think it works? Does every man have an image of a Hollywood-goddess type mate in mind, and strives to attain her favour?

All good points coming up

I liked the one about "male identified women" belledamesansmerci

Also the point about just accepting things as they are rather than actively doing something.

I'd say there are some men who lack a sense of self, aren't actively oppressing women, but are secretly quite that there are other men who ARE really rubbish, because that then increases their desirability?

(interestingly, i find this type can get passive aggressive if they find that just "not being a bastard" isn't enough to get the women they "think" they deserve)

Or men can be fairly happy that a lot of women will try and convince other women into emotionally "settling" and ignoring her own instincts.

Many guys I've dated have tried to play the system by wanting to be viewed by my female friends/mum (assuming that if they can win them over then I'll cave in to peer pressure).

Mornin' BDSM.
Yes, I'd see that "Ultimately" is misplaced re women hating women compared with men hating women in view of the approx 2 women being killed each week. I'd meant this in the v long term i.e. if women do 'hate' women then it narrows down considerably to opportunities for change in some ways. Having said that, it's mens' behaviour that is required to change (i.e. being that better part of themselves, without having to be taught how to by the women in their lives).
Appreciate this is an off-shoot of the OP's subject - am currently in a work situation where I am the only male manager in a group of 7 of us, looking at how to divvy up £100,000s of public money. I am on a daily basis at how really really badly the others are treating others. There's me and a.n.other who spend a lot of time looking down at papers whilst the rest use the finance platform to take lumps out of each other. They are not 'behaving like men' or the perception - they are competing powerful individuals who fear each other and the gender is irrelevant. imho

Perhaps 'hate' is too big a word for mens' attitudes and feelings - though indifference is way too small often, when so many rules, cultures, social arrangements are in effect reducing the chances of females making as wide a range of choices that men, other things being equal, can.

'I wonder if we do ourselves a bit of a disservice by defining misogyny as hating women, '

Could not agree more, Buffy. I suspect it was first defined from a POV of anger and frustration, but I think hate is such a powerful word that people - men and women - immediately think 'woah, hang on!'.

I look at women in the only industry I have worked in, IT. My company employs over 400,000 people world-wide. The CEO is a woman. That is someone who has beaten hundreds of thousands of other candidates, judged on her ability. The newer industries seem better at this - Sheryl Sandberg, Carly Fiorina etc. I don't think this is a coincidence.

Re the straight white male thing - all true. But I am in a position to appreciate that these things could happen. I just don't accept that they do as a default, everywhere, every time.

Sal said 'even if there is no hate, just a bit of indifference...'. I think that this is far closer to the truth than the idea of one gender hating another. Maybe not even indifference, just an unconscious acceptance of gender-defined roles.

And when the 'rules' are contradicted, who actually thinks that is is wrong or odd any more? How many people are taken aback when meeting a female headmaster, doctor, MP, lecturer, manager, accountant, banker, soldier, pilot, estate agent, Prime Minister, Home Secretary etc etc? You lot are bloody everywhere

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Sorry, that was aimed at Sal, not Buffy!

Honestly, all you feminists look the same!

Yet, even if there's no hate, just a bit of indifference or a bit of harmless ocassional objectification by individuals, over time that builds up. I think cultural messages are strong and largely unexamined, and it's possible for people to just imbibe low level misogyny without noticing. And reflect it back, perpetuating the cycle.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Buffy. It's the culture, rather than individual behaviour that carries the overwhelming destructive power. The culture allows the consciously hating individual to carry out the horrific acts detailed on here, in the news and by our peers on a daily basis. If the culture where to be changed those acts wouldn't be as acceptable and society would police itself. Similar to the way drink driving has, over the past decade or so, become socially unacceptable. Of course changing 1000s of years of human behaviour isn't going to be as easy as a decade of so of human behaviour, but there are signs that the tide is turning, despite the rampant misogyny that crops up everywhere.

Bearing all that in mind, I suppose the OPs question has multiple levels of answers and the deeper one delves, the more personal those answers will be. Why do I hate women? On a personal level I don't, on a cultural level? I don't know and I'm constantly embarassed and ashamed that I do...

Yes, Buffy, guilty

It's interesting you say MayorQuimby about recognising misogyny yet not seeing that men hate women.
I guess one is a bit personal and it's understandable to balk at that, I know I do.
Yet, even if there's no hate, just a bit of indifference or a bit of harmless ocassional objectification by individuals, over time that builds up. I think cultural messages are strong and largely unexamined, and it's possible for people to just imbibe low level misogyny without noticing. And reflect it back, perpetuating the cycle.

I don't think women are positioned as inferior any more though (I assume we are talking about the workplace here). I just think that they are hampered by traditional roles that we are all trying to break out of. Dads working part-time, extended paternity leave, more stay at home dads will hopefully fix a lot of the problems for women who want a life-long career.

And, sorry to bang on, I don't think women hating women is more damaging than men hating them while men generally hold the more powerful position. It's largely irrelevant on a global scale even if it feels very relevant when it's happening on an individual basis.

Pan (and "hi" btw), I think "well it's the patriarchy" does answer some of that question.

Leaving aside that some women just don't like each other (personality clash thing - same with some men) the main stuff I've seen is around women in powerful positions at work seeking to protect their own hard-won positions by behaving either like men or as men are perceived; women being "ball breakers" (I bloody hate that expression) and being more like men than men. I've worked with enough of them... That behaviour is largely approved of by "the patriarchy" as I perceive it.

Then, there are the "men's women" - women who seek approval from men all the time; women who see other women as competition - competition for a man because, in the patriarchy, a woman is nothing without a man.

Actually, I might be able to rustle up a bit of disdain for someone like that so perhaps it's another reason women "hate" women?

OTOH it's just as reasonable to ask 'why do women hate other women?' Ultimately that is far more damaging than some blokes who fear for themselves. The answer 'well it's the patriarchy, innit' just doesn't cover why relatively more powerful women treat other women really badly.

" It seems to wish to re-inforce a stereo-type, and as such doesn't actually provide any substance."

agreed.
The attempts to shoe-horn in cultural references etc. so it can justify the premise of these being issues for "modern men" etc. just make it look all over the place. Like they've come up with the references or tone they want to strike and then tried to crowbar them into the article.

It doesn't read like someone who's started examining the issues and arrived at the conclusions of "because movies tell us we deserve the girl.", but rather they came up with a few headings and then worked backwards.

I'd echo the doubts to the paternity thing.
I did find the theory with regards to the subconscious social development (men creating certain oppressive social norms which would decrease the chance of being cuckolded etc.) an interesting one and in it at least has a narrative logic to it.

But it's just not something that would seem to dominate any man I knows life. And I know that this would be exactly the point if it was subliminal/ingrained etc. and that the fact I can't see it could even be taken as proof.

But then I'm probably one of the men who've been referenced throughout the thread. I find it hard to see find the reason because in the back of my mind to the question of "why do men hate women?", I can't help but think "I don't" or "the men I know don't."

And that's not to deny the misogyny that definitely exists in society and that I quite often argue with male friends and even my gf about (she never sees it), but (and I think this is a failing of me/human nature) I think a lot of people who are part of a group that a blanket statement is being made about will automatically revert to looking at the individual or being defensive or trying to contradict the statement etc. rather than engage in the debate it's trying to start.

So it's an oxymoron where I can recognise misogyny but also somehow deny men hate women etc.

Thanks Chotter. I think I'm with mayor on that one. Most of it just doesn't ring true and could be taken from a Cosmo article, stylistically. It seems to wish to re-inforce a stereo-type, and as such doesn't actually provide any substance.