WHY do so many (it seems) men hate and fear women?

Buffy - yes, spot on. 'othering' is so strong that when the enlightened (for their time) Founding Fathers proclaimed 'all men are created equal' it was a given that meant 'all white males'.

But we are discussing it, aren't we. No-one is saying don't discuss it as far as I can see.

Within the discussion, questions have been posed specifically to the men on here, and I have tried to address them.

chotter I said: " "I don't / my Nigel doesn't therefore there's no need to discuss this"." Some women agree with you, so what? That's not an argument.

thanks flora

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xHp5iTtWRc

I like alliteration!

I think it's missing the point a little to say that it generalises too much. The points above are demonstrably true about messages culture (esp. in the US) presents regardless of whether every man falls for / accepts the points. I would guess he feels he is not speaking just for himself but from his observations of how cultural messages affect men generally.

I don't think this is only relevant to 16 year old dudes on the web. The whole MRA / PUA group of men reeks of this stuff.

I agree that men and women get angry and stuck in emotional / social ruts but women are not killing men at a rate of three a week so I do think it's a sex thing.

whenthered posted this on another thread about Nice Guys getting resentful, make sure you watch to the end:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xHp5iTtWRc

Flora, I recognise a couple of regular female posters who didn't 'get' the article either, so it seems a bit disingenuous to suggest that it is only men dismissing the article. Also posters called lara and lorna, who one might suppose were female, although one never can tell on t'internet.

However, we were asked specifically by the OP to comment on the article. If, as you suggest, it's a jokey intro, then giving any serious critique is going to be pretty tricky.

Sal, 'so how would I write such an article?' A very good question. I wouldn't, because even as a joke, men being trained to hate women is neither funny nor truthful on a wider scale. I'd go with something about equal parenting responsibility. Not snappy, and not Clarkson-esque enough for that website, but for me it's a big issue re equality in the workplace.

SinisterSal and FloraFox we all got usernames with alliteration in them, we're like triplets

Clicking back on the article, I think my issue with it was that it "generalises" from the authors own experience into "modern men".

WT actual fuck is a modern man and who says what a modern man "is"?

Also he uses "we" a bit too much? Why can't he own what he says and admit it's only himself he can speak for. It's like I can't say "on behalf of all women", cause my life experience is and should be very different to theirs.

A lot of the references he uses are probably relevant if you're some sixteen year old dude who lives on the web and for "pop culture" but certainly all the men I LIKE and regard as proper men would be like "christina who?"

Also I think I do find some of the stuff he says applies, eg the Nice Guys getting resentful.

But I don't think its a gender thing, I think "people" in general can get stuck in emotional/social ruts where they'e permanently angry or whatever (let's say I personally wouldn't want to repeat my "dating skills" from when I was 18 any time soon or I'd be a very pissed off woman ) and then it's down to them to "break out of them"

I liked it Sal. The article is called "5 ways modern men are trained to hate women". The response from the men seems to be "I don't hate women so the article is not true".

It's supposed to be a funny article, not a thesis, but a lot of it rings true particularly to the extent it's talking about what society does, not what individual men thing. It's also obviously written by an American and does seem consistent with US mainstream culture.

Points 4 and 5 are commentary on the media presenting an expectation of getting a hot girl / women being decorative. The mainstream media does this. I don't see how anyone could argue with that.

Point 3, there's no doubt men are far more likely to be caught committing sexual acts in public, no doubt women have been cast as evil temptresses since, literally, the (Christian) beginning of time, and no doubt that "she was asking for it" is still a "bullshit rape defence".

Point 2, manhood being "stolen" is very evident in views put forward by MRAs but also your common or garden "feminism has gone too far" Daily Mail reader.

Point 1, I didn't really get this one. It seemed to be a combination of all the other points so I'm not sure if there was a separate point being made here. If there was, it's too much into the male or the author's psyche for me to comment.

The title of the thread is not "why do all men hate all women" so it doesn't add much for anyone to come along and say "I don't / my Nigel doesn't therefore there's no need to discuss this".

My poor article roundly attacked by all

I thought it was a pretty good article. It's on a general funny chat sort of site, so pretty light hearted for a general audience. Not for someone particularly interested in gender issues or in depth cultural analysis, more for the casual clicker.
IMO it's true that general misogyny comes from cultural messages rather than a natural reaction to the fact that women are, in fact, a bit shit, so I was pleased that that was the note it struck.
The point that men resent women for distracting them with sexiness (and especially if unable to 'gain satisfaction' repeatedly) seemed plausible to me too. It's something i have noticed myself.
But it has been interesting seeing mens' take on it.

But if none of the points ring true for the men here disagreeing with it, how would they write an article like taht? What points would you include?

Sinistersal posted the article here, and Hully thought it made sense.

Are either of you around still? Do either of you think the article makes valid points?

I'm normally very wary of men who go "as a man I can speak for all men"....

What so the men I know IRL who wouldn't dream of posting their "opinions" places aren't part of these "men" of whom you speak?

Most journalisty/writery male types are a bit unmasculine and weird anyway, so why they're adopting a position as "spokespeople" for their gender fuck knows...

Interestingly enough, I reckon the author IS speaking for himself, but not for other men

That article is fairly shite btw. It looks like the author is "playing for attention" by making some very "black and white points" .

If one looks at his Wikipedia page, he seems to be very big on self promotion and that's reflected in that his article is the same level as a Daily Mail headline - get something that is gonna be discussed loads cause its very polarised/polarising.

I'm not sure I know any men who fear and hate women.

I hasten to add I don't agree with everything, but some of it is very eye-opening (IE a table to conflicting traits mysogynists tend to expect in women)

Ah, didn't see that. I wouldn't agree that all men feel "owed" a beautiful woman. I think a lot of men appreciate them, which is nice as I hope I appreciate a handsome chap in turn.

My own personal experience - as outlined above - is that there are SOME men who internalise "society owes them a beautiful woman" and link that to internal anger/dissatisfaction.

So if they're single or feel that they're not "getting" women at their level, rather than work on themselves or giving their head a wobble and adjusting their expectations, they start getting pissy at the "kind of woman who rejects/disapproves of them".

(MOTHER ISSUES is my theory)

Of course I can't comment on all men, just as I can't say "all women", I can only comment based on my personal experience, I don't know all men or all women My favourite friend IRL is a man.

I found this an interesting (if scary!) read: www.amazon.co.uk/Hate-Women-Adam-Edward-Jukes/dp/1853431958

With regard to those types of men, Lorna, here is what was written in the article we were discussing (in case you didn't see it);

^Does it seem like men feel kind of entitled to sex? Does it seem like we react to rejection with the maturity of a child being denied a toy?

Well, you have to keep in mind that what we learn as kids is really hard to deprogram as an adult. And what we learned as kids is that we males are each owed, and will eventually be awarded, a beautiful woman.^

I think it was the inference - each owed - that we all feel like that, that lead some people to dismiss the article as a load of rot.

PSS

of course I find the idea of having male "friends" who are only hanging out with me so they can be a bit peevish over what they can't get entirely repulsive (even if it would be to my benefit ).

So I haven't got myself a collection of "Dave the IT contractor who just likes taking me out to dinner" types in my phonebook

But I get the impression this "type" tends to follow a similar pattern - they CHOOSE to put themselves in social positions where they can be resentful over the women they don't get, rather than be in harmony and a progressive relationship with a woman who does like them.

Often wonder if there are mother issues (as in she's overcritical so they are fundamentally "scared" of women) or inadequacy issues going on there.