A college bans face coverings womens rights vs security vs multiculturalism?

Women walking around the UK completely covered up really challenge us. In a way they're saying 'We're here, we've got a right to be here, we're here to stay. Oh, and we'll wear what we want and live how we like!' How feminist is that!?

Completely different situation from women living in traditional villages who have no choice.

I don't care if women chose to wear it. Feminism is about choice. Not all choices are feminist.

It perpetuates the idea of women needing to cover themselves so men can control themselves, it separates women from society both visually and practically. We are animals. We have developed speech but we still use a huge amount of non verbal communication. A veil shuts people off. That's the point of it.

That seems an odd response about an issue which doesn't apply to me and I am only speculating about and talking about what other people have to say about it! I don't wear the hijab or niqab and am not religious. I think, from previous threads, that GothAnne is pretty well informed about this subject.

MsRisotto, I think that is a genuine problem for all people who are defined as allies of one kind or another. I don't know how we can resolve it, but I believe it contributes to people not wanting to speak out about the issues of other groups.

I would like to know what the lives of those converts to Islam are like, those who cover their faces, do they work? do they spend most of their time in religious contemplation? do they only leave the home if they have to eg school pick up?
No one condemns nuns, but then the strictest of them stay in their nunneries and pray (I would guess), many are out and about but ime only wear wimple and not a long dress.
If someone wants to be a devout person then good, but shouldn't expect others to adapt to suit them, eg letting those in niqab work despite the difficulties it might mean in being understood when speaking to others. And if you have strong religious beliefs are you going to be able to take advantage of your education? Can you only work if the employer allows an accompanying male family member to attend too? Say you are on call in some emergency job and it is time for prayer, what takes precedence?
I sort of feel that follow strict muslim laws if you wish but do follow them, don't wear a niqab to make a point. And you will expect your daughters to behave the same I should think (sad imo when they are surrounded by others with different behavior).

I don't mind the the full veil but it shouldn't be allowed for exams. Not all teachers are female but it must be removed for confirmation of attendance as this is linked to student funding.
If extra time and money is used to identify people then I don't agree with that.

"I have real difficulty with the argument that opposing the wearing of the niqab is 'telling women what to wear," and therefore disempowering them." I don't think opposing the niqab is disempowering to women. I think not letting them wear it in an environment where they might not be allowed to subsequently attend because of their societal and familial pressures is also wrong. It is squeezing women from both sides. It is unfair.

I'm afraid my attitude to the niqab is coloured by something I saw in a hotel lift in Kuala Lumpur. A man, woman and a little girl - maybe 5 or so. The little girl was all dressed up for a party the hotel was putting on. She wore a pretty pink glittery frock and satin shoes with ribbons in her hair (yes I know but pink glitter is a debate for another day). Her dad was dressed in jeans and a white open necked shirt showing an expense of hairy chest with a large gold chain and medallion nesting on it. His sleeves were rolled up and he had an expensive looking gold watch on one wrist and a heavy gold bracelet on the other. Very bling! He was holding the little girl's hand and his daughter was chattering excitedly to him.

Mum? She was standing silently behind, full niqab, eyes lowered. The lift opened, we all got out and she trailed silently behind.

I felt so sad to know that this little girl will one day morph into this black clad figure while Dad goes on his merry way blinging and breaking all Islamic codes of modesty, which Muslims will tell you is supposed to apply to both sexes.

Outrageous double standards that seemingly are now being endorsed by a percentage of young Muslim women in this country.

I am, by nature, someone who would defend the right of women to wear what they freely choose. But the question is - just like another thread (on page 3) is trying to make people see the bigger picture - what societal effect is the niqab having on the way women are viewed? Page 3/the niqab - two sides of the same coin.

Actually though msrisotto, I don't believe many current wearers of a face covering in the UK do "have" to wear it. I have worked (on and off) in East London since the late 80's.

To begin with most older Muslim women had a headscarf but didn't cover their faces. Their daughters often did neither. But the daughter's daughters now do cover their faces. So if it didn't come from their parents, who's telling them they must?

I have real difficulty with the argument that opposing the wearing of the niqab is 'telling women what to wear," and therefore disempowering them.

That seems to be a very trite feminist argument about a practice which damages women's rights and restricts women's freedom.

It strikes me that the argument is that it's ok for those women to adopt it but I doubt any of us would want our own daughters to start wearing it.

I feel sad when I look at my daughter's vivacious laughing friend and know that one day she will have to wear the niqab like her grandmother, mother and 5 aunts.

Great summary, Freya.

I disagree a little bit about 3 though. As I said, I know there are many reasons for women to wear the niqab, including through choice, but to me that doesn't detract from the norm's origins in a sexist point of view.

For example, you're right that some women wear it to assert their cultural identity as Muslim women. But who decided that the niqab is part of what defines a Muslim woman? How did it come to have such a strong associative value? Regardless of why a woman chooses to wear it, the original religious or cultural justification for that practice has to do with modesty and women's sexuality.

This is why I say I respect any woman's choice to wear it, because I know there are many possible reasons and it's not for me to judge. But I find the norm itself to be problematic in that it is often strong enough so that women do not have a choice whether to go along or not.

People seem to have different issues with the niqab:

1. It is hard for some people to communicate with a person in a niqab. I think this was the situation with the classroom assistant who lost her job for wearing one. (Muslim) parents complained that their children couldn't understand her because of the niqab. Some of the children had SEN and so the niqab created additional difficulties for them (This is my issue with it).
2. It is a UK cultural norm that we see faces when talking to each other so we can identify each other, and not showing the face can be perceived as threatening. It is harder to interact and make friends with people when you cannot see their face (perhaps Tabard's point?).
3. The niqab is sexist as only women wear it, it is treating women as sexual objects who must cover themselves so as not to tempt men, it can sometimes be compulsory not a choice and it is associated with religious conservatism. (The point made by some other posters)

I think 3 is the one where there could be an overlap with racism. It is making a lot of assumptions about why women wear the niqab. It may well be the case that some women are making it as a political statement about their cultural identity as Muslim women, their resistance to cultural and political imperialism and their resistance to assimilation. And some women may just be wearing it because they feel comfortable. I don't think wearing the niqab can always be assumed to be about modesty and religion.

I mean, the same arguments can be made about that style of dress as can be made about the veil -- the choices are "inauthentic", culturally imposed; women are more free if they are forced not to make those choices, etc. Both forms of dress seem to involve an overly sexualised idea of what a woman's body is. And in each case the prohibition of the form of dress is as colonising of a woman's body as the initial sexualising pressures to dress that way are in the first place.

I'd quite happily wear one (as a man), I'd like to wear a Balaclava in the winter when it's cold, but I can't. My son got told to take his off by the Police one winters day when he was 16.

People don't like other people hiding their faces. Fact. Vocal sounds are only part of our communication suite, face and body language are just as important as tone when talking to someone. Our cultural behaviour is to not feel comfortable if we can't see a face - not sure why that's less important than their cultural behaviour to hide it? Especially as we were here first!!

It's NOT a religious requirement - it's a religious choice. If other people have to take off their crash helmets, sunglass/cap combos when entering banks, petrols stations etc. why can other people walk in with their faces covered? Selfridges didn't appreciate it - Burka Robbery

Personally I wish the UK would take the same stance as France, can't see it happening until a few more robberies/attacks etc have been carried out using them though...

"Illiberal to defend greater liberty"?

Poor womankind. Let's not stop at the niqab, though. Let's ban the meticulous conversion by some women of their bodies into cosmetically assisted consumerist fantasy versions of X-factor sexualised glamour.

It comes down to the age-old problem that it's difficult, and sometimes impossible, to defend liberal principles with liberal actions. e.g. use of conscript troops to defend Europe against Fascism.

Sometimes you have to be illiberal (i.e. ban veil) to defend the greater liberty. Or, if you wanted, you could argue it the other way.

It all comes down to whether you think women genuinely choose to wear the veil (some people) or whether it is largely a male-inspired and enforced mode of dress (which is what I think)

When men start wearing the niqab, I will be happy with it.

I feel conflicted about it, like several other posters on the thread. There does seem to be a difference between Hollobone's attempt to legislate against the veil and initiatives like this one in Birmingham. It seems to me wrong and grossly offensive for the state to prohibit the veil, to determine women's dress for them. Whatever form of life the state endorses and seeks to foster by its laws should be "thin" enough not to constrain individual enactment of cultural preferences. But perhaps an institution like a college has the right to seek to foster a much more substantial ethos, which might be incompatible with certain choices on the part of its members. I don't know. I think that whatever the correct theoretical answer, in practice prohibition is likely to add more bullying and constraint to a religious group (Muslims) and a gender (women) than is reasonable in a context in which each of these groups is hassled enough already.

I am sure the regulation of it is connected with racism.
Ditto the reason lots of people don't like it.

However I think it's shortsighted to dismiss all criticism of this particular form of dress as being based in racism / ignorance.

There are lots of other reasons to dislike the veil, which are not based in racism or ignorance. Also many people on the thread who have said they do not like it, have said they would not ban it, nor would they force women to stop wearing it.

I don't think that Gosh said it wasn't an issue to do with sexism, rather that we shouldn't pretend that the regulation of it wasn't connected with racism. I do think that it is the profound sense of "otherness" (which as complacten liberal westerners we create ourself by designating variant cultures as Other) that is a primary motive for seeking to ban the full facial covering veil. Issues like security and sexual liberation often function as rationalisations of the sought prohibition.

But not all muslim countries are "like that", whatever you mean by "like that".

What I am saying is that countries where women cover their faces as a matter of course when in public, are not bastions of liberal tolerant values. Surely there's no argument there?

To say that niqab is not a sexist issue is ridiculous. Men don't wear it. Same as other more extreme religious groups around here have dress codes which are always (AFAICS) stricter on the women and the men. Maybe there are some that have it the other way around - I haven't studied all world religions. But certainly all the ones around here it is the case, and often there is segregation of the sexes in places of worship, roles that women are expected to perform and so on. Sexist.

Pointless IMO to pretend that the wearing of extreme religious dress is not sexist, and is not related to religious conservatism.

It's just the old double standard in a different guise. Only women wear the niqab.

I have a feeling that if men were suddenly required to wear it they would see what a restrictive dehumanising garment it is. I can't imagine the tradition lasting five minutes if men had to put with it.

In some fantasy I dream of all the men in the family that require women to wear this garment being forced to wear it as well. Bye bye niqab