Gender feminism - would like to know what people think

I think men and women are different, just not in the ways that we think they are.

And I think the differences are small, have lots of overlap and are hugely exacerbated by social factors. And I think that overlap would be even greater if we had a society which didn't subtly and not-subtly push boys and girls in opposing directions since before they were even born.

I don't understand what gender feminism is either. When I google I seem to get sites saying more or less what scallops said, that feminists think gender is a damaging social construct, or I get the gender studies bunch.

Might you be thinking of gender studies? There are people who talk about gender as a more concrete concept, and some of them would identify as third-wave feminists - people who'd say that a tomboyish girl was 'genderqueer'.

I find it really unhelpful, personally, because I think the differences between individuals are much more significant than the differences between the sexes. I don't really believe the hormones/preferences stuff is very important. Even if you think (for example) that most women are more interested in babies than most men, you still need to create a society where men who are interested in babies don't get mocked, and where women who aren't interested don't get belittled, and where caring for babies is not something that is correlated with the social and economic oppression of one sex or other.

FWIW I don't see what's wrong with a three year old inviting only girls to any party, fairy or not, though if said three year old is anything like the three year olds I've met, they'll probably change their minds nine times in one day about who to invite anyway.

Radical feminists believe gender is a social construct and hierarchy used to keep women oppressed. They think that gender should be abolished and differences celebrated not punished as currently happens in a patriarchy.

This doesn't mean they think men and women are the same just that people would be healthier if they weren't pushed into damaging stereotypes. They also recognise biological differences and that is the root of oppression against women.

I don't know any strand of feminism that says men and women are the same (there might be I just don't know of it). Just ones that say we don't know what differences are innate and what are socially constructed.

I have a 3 year-old (boy as it happens) - he has only the vaguest idea that there even are 'boys' and 'girls' and that the two are different (he seems to judge mainly on hair I think, but default to 'he' and 'boy').

He certainly would have no idea how to only invite girls to a party - if that happened, I'd be the one making the selections because he isn't mentally capable of making the distinction.

He'd also be perfectly happy to go to a pink fairy party with glitter and wings and wands and tutus despite being totally obsessed with cars (as would most of the children at his playgroup from what I can see). He's far too young for peer pressure to be boyish to have had an effect, and I'm certainly not going to artificially limit him.

I guess my point is, that for 3 year olds at least, it seems to me that it really must be nurture - ie the parents pushing for just girls, because the children themselves are still so young that it can't be them.

Prepubescent children don't really have different levels of hormones, though. There is a difference in prenatal exposure, but comparing girls with a male fraternal twin (who would have been exposed to higher testosterone levels in utero ) with girls with a female fraternal twin (who wouldn't) showed absolutely no statistically significant difference in interests or behaviour, which suggests that it can't have that big an impact.

Not aware of a 'new brand' of feminism. I just believe whatever seems sensible from everything I read and see around me.

No one knows what would happen if we removed the social conditioning. There was a separated-twin study in the states that was cancelled and the results hidden and there have been a few 'feral' children, but no one rally knows.

The scientific data I've seen shows that our brains are highly 'elastic' and can be made to 'perform' differently, even on scans etc. suggesting that if we treat a boy like a girl he will behave an perform like a girl...but that's just what I remember from the Dr. Fine book

Hormones affect everyone in different ways. I personally notice no fluctuations but some are highly affected and men are the same. I still find no reason testosterone means you don't like fairies, you love football and you deserve to be paid more. Nor any reason oestrogen means every woman makes a great carer, loves shoes and babies and should clean her husband's skid marks up.

And what about post-menopausal or people with hormone imbalance.

And where to LGBT people fit into this if biology is supposed to determine how you behave?

But what differences really?
We all want the same things, love, sex, respect, autonomy, satisfying work etc, human things.

Some people are thrill seekers, some are confrontational. Those qualities probably do have a hormonal aspect but as you say hormone levels fluctuate within the individual so much anyway. And we can't seperate the cultural aspects of those behaviours either to quantify how much of an impact they have.
Why concentrate on the unimportant external fripperies like shoes and football as though that's what defines a person.

I hate emphasising the difference thing. We don't, as a society, do it to any other groupings except between the sexes.

I don't agree that feminism is trying to say that men and women would turn out the same if we were all treated differently. I think the idea is that a) a large proportion of these differences are artificial and b) human beings are so incredibly varied that there will always be people who absolutely cannot be squeezed into any box.

Lots of little boys may well like fairies. Lots won't and would prefer cars. Lots of little girls may well like cars though more will probably like fairies. The central idea behind feminism wanting environmental conditioning removed is so that each and every one of these children can then make up their own mind!

Remove environmental conditioning and more women that men may still choose to stay at home, and more men may remain on executive committees. But you can be damn sure that there will be more men SAH than there are now, and more women in the boardroom/engineering. Because they will get to make their own decisions without being told it's "wrong", and they will be so much the happier for it.

It's really about letting people be who they are, not who they're supposed to be.

And feminism doesn't say men and women have to be the same, just that we should have the same choices and opportunities. I don't want to be the same as a man and I don't want to be the same as another woman. I just want to be a person not judged as liking shoes, clothes, make up, caring, cooking etc. and being a bad driver, a good cook, bad a maths, not into video-games etc. just because I have a vagina.

I think scientific evidence of innate behavioural difference is tiny and highly disputed and it's so hard to measure the effect of nature vs. nurture because you cannot raise children in controlled conditions and experiment on them.

I have seen such variety in the people that I have met that it makes no sense to say 'all men are like this' 'all women are like this'. You do see trends (that I, personally, would attribute to nurture) but the majority of people do not fit the gender stereotype fully and a significant minority are completely at odds with theirs.

My point being that typical differences, though they may exist (through nature or nurture) do not IN ANY WAY justify the prejudice and discrimination that did, and continues to exist. Targeting services to those who need them i.e. maternity, dv support, different cancers etc. is helpful and useful...saying 'all girls seem to like fairys, boys don't so let's exclude them' isn't.

We are biologically different, our behaviours are formed by our society and our individual personalities but we are still all equal IMO