OK. Please can we talk about women raping men?

I haven't participated in this thread and I know it's less active now, however I have an interesting link.

Over on Manboobz manboobz.com/2013/09/18/for-a-voice-for-men-and-its-edmonton-offshoot-terrifying-women-is-a-form-of-human-rights-activism/comment-page-1/ in the comments they linked to an official response from the CDC regarding the much misused NISVS report.

It is presently on Reddit unfortunately, but it does a great job of refuting the MRA bollocks surrounding the report.
www.reddit.com/r/againstmensrights/comments/1lq3n3/cdc_responds_are_40_of_rapists_women/

I should add that in no way do I support highlighting the existance of female-on-male rape and the detriment to any other forms of rape, but it would be nice it it was even acknowledge as a thing occasionally, rather than always hearing the dogmatic rhetoric that often surrounds sexual assault. Rape overall is an incredibly complex issue, and far to many people want to lock it down to black and white for the sake of simplicity (or something, I don't know why really).

I thought I'd swing by here as I'm a man currently working through the various emotional and psychological issues that may or may not have been caused by my being "sexually assaulted" around 8 years ago. In my case I was 20 years old and my assaulter was a older co-worker in her thirties who took advantage of me being extremely drunk to have sex with me.

Before the event I could see where things were going but did not have the experience or sobriety or social skills to remove myself from the situation without causing a scene. I'm sure there are plenty of things that I could have done, including using force, but I didn't, I can't explain why. The situation was disturbing and distressing, the woman was very insistent and pushy, and I couldn't handle it.

Afterwards, I didn't think of the event as an assault (even though I would have been furious if a similar thing had happened to one of my female friends). I didn't tell anyone about it then or since (bar my therapist), because of shame I felt. The two people who worked out what happened (both female co-workers) thought it was hilarious and mocked me quite relentlessly about it for a short while. I'm still not fully able to consider myself a victim, even as I understand the long term damage that it has done to my life.

I'm not an MRA, but I'm familiar with the works of most of the thought leaders in the movement. I believe the MRA take on this is largely based upon the CDC report, which is contentious in the fact that specific measures were taken to reduce the statistics for male rape victims, through use of semantics. This, to anyone who is sensitive to the issue, feels a lot like an attempt to marginalise the male victims. By doing so you also get the cheeky bonus of almost 100% of rapists being men.

Whether or not this is a deliberate aim, the result is the same - the regular media discussion that makes headlines is about "rape", and how that is something men do. The 1,000,000 or so men who are non-raped by women in the USA in a year are politically inconvenient for some and uncomfortable to think about for most. That discomfort is expressed in this thread by various people discussing "power dynamics" and how that somehow makes it "different" (but we're not sure how), which is truly dehumanising.

It is reassuring that when people are presented with an individual case they can understand that there is a human being and can muster empathy, but it's also disturbing that in the abstract very few people care. Or indeed that a female poster can come on here and admit that she used to act in sexually aggressive ways towards men and few people bat an eyelid. I understand she regrets it and I really don't want to point fingers at her, but just imagine a male poster coming on here talking about being sexually aggressive towards women, and what your reaction would be.

Even I would be more disgusted by a man saying that than a woman, because that is how strongly we, as a society, are conditioned to never, ever acknowledge or respect male victimhood and male vulnerability.

It often seems to me that MRA anger is really disappointment in the patriarchy for not delivering what it seems to promise men.

Feminists aren't making men kill themselves through shame, rape and mutilate one another in prison, shoulder disproportionate financial burdens, ignore male-specific diseases, etc. Patriarchal values do all that to them. But they daren't reject patriarchy, so they blame its enemies.

I've been thinking about this when I find myself unable to sleep, and what occurs to me is:

Men are assumed to be always 'up for it'
Men wouldn't report a woman doing this, because it undermines their manliness (ie. that they should always be 'up for it')

Ie. it's yet another case of the patriarchy/macho culture harming men as much as women. The attitude that men are always a glimpse of a woman's legs away from having sex means that women get blamed if they are raped, but also means that if men are assaulted by a woman they don't get taken seriously.

In both cases, the person doing the assaulting is clearly wrong, but the same macho society attitude in each case condemns/ridicules the victim rather than placing the blame where it should be - on the one perpetrating the assault.

Of course blame the individual women for committing the crime, but it's not women as a group causing the harm, it's the patriarchy (again), and yet again the MRA's anger is mis-directed.

Whenthered- to use a very macho term, you really took one for the team, thanks for summarising that.

Side note - were I an "MRA" things that would really concern me would be things like combating the male suicide rate, prison reform - particularly of Young Offenders Institutions, male health problems like ED and particular cancers. These are all problems which disproportionately affect men.

Yet actual MRAs seem to be more concerned with demonising women.

You're welcome! It's a well-organised report, very readable.

Sue, thank you for summarising some of the information in your link.

That's true WhentheRed, the lifetime figure for prevalence of sexual violence is 4.4 times the yearly figure for men, and 17 times the yearly figure for women. I've seen various attempts at explanation for why the lifetime ratio differs so widely from the yearly ratio, such as:
? Participants in the survey are 18+, so when getting the data for the 12 month figures, only rapes from 17+ are counted. Whereas the lifetime figures count rapes from any age. So perhaps women are being raped far, far more often at 16 or under than men (I don't have the stats on this, but it certainly seems possible)
? Related to the above; women aren't being raped more often, they are just more likely to reveal it. Men are unlikely to report child sexual abuse, so it wouldn't show up in lifetime figures, but they are more willing to report it as an adult (I know that only 1 in 6 male abuse victims will 'admit' to being abused, but I don't know the rate for women, so can't say whether there is a gender difference in under-reporting child sexual abuse)
? A larger number of women are being raped less frequently, whereas a smaller number of men are being raped multiple times (can't see the reason why this would be true)
? Rape rates for women have dropped to a comparable level with men, and this is now being reflected in the up-to-date 12-month statistics, but the lifetime figures include women who lived during a time when more women were raped than men. (Wishful thinking, I suspect)

SinisterSal reversing the 79.2% figure, that leaves 20.8% of male victims who were forced to penetrate male perpetrators, or 263,536 cases per year.

Are there many cases of men being forced to penetrate other men?

"But the MRA are full of stories of men waking up after falling asleep drunk at parties to find women on top of them. And vqriations on th them of being forced to penetrate against their will. And, it might just be my misandry showing, but really? Does this happen a lot? Is it a really serious problem that needs to be addressed, and have equivilant resources given to it?"

There was a "National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey" (that's a PDF link, by the way) from the US in 2010 that is a favourite of the MRAs for the following reason: the number of women who were raped in the last twelve months, and the number of men who were 'made to penetrate' in the last twelve months, is about the same (1,270,000, and 1,267,000 respectively). The section with these figures starts on page 17.

The report defines 'Made To Penetrate' as including "times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim?s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent. Among women, this behavior reflects a female being made to orally penetrate another female?s vagina or anus. Among men, being made to penetrate someone else could have occurred in multiple ways: being made to vaginally penetrate a female using one?s own penis; orally penetrating a female?s vagina or anus; anally penetrating a male or female; or being made to receive oral sex from a male or female. It also includes female perpetrators attempting to force male victims to penetrate them, though it did not happen". I can't really see why this wouldn't come under the definition of rape myself, it reads like a pretty textbook case of non-consensual sex.

An interesting breakdown of the perpetrators for male victims: "the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (93.3%) reported only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims reported only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (79.2%), sexual coercion (83.6%), and unwanted sexual contact (53.1%). For non-contact unwanted sexual experiences, approximately half of male victims (49.0%) reported only male perpetrators and more than one-third (37.7%) reported only female perpetrators (data not shown)".

So 79.2% of those 1,267,000 men who were 'made to penetrate' were the victims of female perpetrators. In other words, 1,003,464 men were raped by women in the last year, in the US. (If you consider 'being made to penetrate' to be raped, which I can't see how you wouldn't).

I didn't think there was a hidden side of stalking and harrassment of men by women. The crazy pyscho bunny boiling bitch is quite a common figure. Especially in comparison to the female rapist. probably proportionate?

Wow the male perspective on the issue. I'm so excited to spend an hour and a half listening to that. After all we never hear the male perapective in the mainstream media.

"Ok, sea forth, but posting a 1.5h radio programme on a parenting site, it's not massively surprising that a child may be in the room during playback."

I've already apologised for my thoughtlessness regarding this.

The program is a discussion between Erin Pizzey, (Lady who opened the first domestic violence shelter in the UK, Author), Dean Esmay (Managing Editor AVoiceForMen) and Philip W. Cook, author of "When Women Sexually Abuse Men, The Hidden Side of Rape, Stalking, Harassment, and Sexual Assault."

Whilst it does touch on the data a great deal, they don't always cite where the figures came from, if anyone wants references/papers and can't find them, message me giving a time in the show and I'll see what I can dig up.

What they spend a fair amount of time discussing is the current zeitgeist towards the male perspective of the issue.

Regards,
Seaforth.

Ok, sea forth, but posting a 1.5h radio programme on a parenting site, it's not massively surprising that a child may be in the room during playback.

Is the programme about rape data?

My apologies, considering the subject matter of the thread already, I didn't consider the possible effect on children. I don't believe that there is anything in the show that is any more graphic than has already been mentioned on the thread.

Whilst it is long, it is informationally dense and since the original post specifically mentioned MRA attitudes I thought that anyone interested in this thread who doesn't know any MRA's would enjoy the chance to hear them discussing the issue essentially in private.

MRA's tend to specialize, and my area is not the data of the rape issue, but I would add one comment, the original poster stated "Some MRA's even say that men are as often victims of rape by women as women are of rape by men.", whilst I would agree that some MRA's do say this, my opinion of the data I have seen is that this is not true. The American CDC survey that this came from clearly shows that if you use a definition of rape by envelopment and a bidirectional definition of consent, the rape rate of men by women is below that of women by men. But it is within a small percentage.

Where things get very interesting is when you add to these figures the amount of rapes that occur on men when in prison, the amount of these in American prisons seems to be in the outrageous level. I have seen calculations that when you add these amounts together for the American population the amount of rapes of men over take the amount of rapes of women. In fairness I've seen a lot of argument about both sets of figures and haven't personally checked the maths. (I feel a project coming on).

Regards,
Seaforth.

Hi all,
I've been following this thread privately for a few days, but didn't wish to jump in and cause a fuss since I'm one of those MRA's that get people in a lather.

Though you may be interested in the following interview of Philip W. Cook by Erin Pizzey and co at BlogTalkRadio.

Regards,
Seaforth.

I can't see the video - it says its private and although I've searched for Li'l Wayne/jimmy kimmel videos I can't find it. Shame, as it would be interesting to see the body language of those involved. I watched another one and JK has a very patronising/ domineering attitude - seems to me partly because Li'l Wayne is indeed quite short and slight (like a woman?).

Wow, that's really interesting, Gosh. Thanks!

It's a pity I can't see the video as I'd love to watch how he responded. I'll have a look for it on YouTube tomorrow. Other strong points made, too.

Always up for it. Two steps along from asking for it?

Just to bring in another angle this is a really, really good piece about the rapper L'il Wayne.

He was on a chat show and the male host said "Oh, I hear you lost your virginity when you were 11! Ha ha!"

Only L'il didn't find it quite so amusing.

So the piece then goes to look at rape apologism and how it alters (but is still used) depending on who the victim is : www.racialicious.com/2009/04/14/when-a-man-is-the-victim-a-second-study-in-rape-apology/?wpmp_tp=0