OK. Please can we talk about women raping men?

Oh if only you truly couldn't be bothered.

but you keep coming back.

I can't be bothered to explain. You will see whatever you want to see, don't we all.

New name change, my actual name.

'Paul Elam has given many men a lifeline, and a voice.'

And these are the views that are being expressed. That is scary shit.

I'm not trying to excuse anything, and I'm sure Paul Elam wouldn't thank me for it anyway. All I am saying, is that you cannot take that one article highlighted and say that it is representative of his views as a whole. That doesn't make me deranged or anything else.

Paul Elam has given many men a lifeline, and a voice. Having said that, there are many other writers, men and women, on AVFM now, so there is diversity there.

"it is the No.1 MRA site globally with over 5 1/2 million visits clocked up, so it can't be that offensive, can it?"

eh? since when was offensiveness determined by page hits?

Then please find me an article where Paul Elam defends women who are victims of rape. Or suggests that women who accuse men of rape are telling the truth. Or in fact has anything nice, complimentary or even handed to say about women.

I do understand Sigmund that you are a female MRA, I even understand your explanation for why you are an MRA, but please don't try and excuse Elam's views as anything other than those he blogs. You will be fighting a losing battle, and make yourself look deranged/not very bright.

'His deeply held belief that all women make up all accusations of rape'

He never said that all women make up all accusations of rape. That's a lie.

There are 100's of articles on A Voice For Men, not only written by P.E, plenty are written by women, including GirlWritesWhat, it is the No.1 MRA site globally with over 5 1/2 million visits clocked up, so it can't be that offensive, can it?

Flora Paul Elam is one of the major players in the MRA movement, especially on the AVfM site. He is nothing if not consistent in his views on women, feminists and the whole false accusation thing. A trawl through his blog posts reveals a man who truly hates women to the depths of his soul, or fears them. One of the two.

His deeply held belief that all women make up all accusations of rape and his endless victim blaming must make very uncomfortable reading for men who are victims of rape or sexual assault, despite how he 'champions' these men.

The words he wrote in that article seem to have upset some of his ardent supporters given the comments left on it by them, and yet he defends his position repeatedly. His vitriol about rape victims and how they all deserve it is probably one of the most offensive things I've seen written on the internet.

I don't much care what you think of Dworkin and I didn't say he might not have something non-hateful and possibly interesting to say even though he is a hateful misogynist. None of that changes that he is clearly a hateful misogynist.

Well it's interesting you said that Flora, as I was told by a feminist that I should overlook one or two of the hate filled ratings of Dworkin and consider her body of work as a whole. But there you are.

Being a lovely guy in any other respect does not cancel out the hate and misogyny in this article. Only a hateful misogynist can write an article expressing hate and misogyny.

That particular article wasn't one that I was in agreement with. In general though, most of his articles are thought-provoking. He is not a hateful misogynist.

I've never heard of Paul Elam but I don't see how anyone could read those words and not think that he is a hateful misogynist of the highest order. Only another hateful misogynist could think otherwise.

Twisted? those were verbatim, no?

'SigmundFraude, the link posted by OpheliaMonarch contained a link to the Paul Elam blog - the words actually written by Paul Elam. The Paul Elam words were and are written on the Voice for Men site. Those are the words that are shocking and hateful.'

Yes I know. Paul Elam's words are very often distorted and twisted, given sinister meanings etc by Manboobz, amongst others. I have been in contact with a couple of people who write for AVFM, and they are most definitely not hateful, nor is Paul Elam.

CaptChaos wrote - "It makes me sad that so-called MRAs take such a victim blaming approach to rape and sexual assault, it must make their male readers who have also been victims of those crimes feel really awful"

I've seen many examples of MRAs blaming female victims of rape and sexual assault, but I've never seen MRAs blame male victims.

^But are these women asking to get raped?

In the most severe and emphatic terms possible the answer is NO, THEY ARE NOT ASKING TO GET RAPED.

They are freaking begging for it.

Damn near demanding it.

And all the outraged PC demands to get huffy and point out how nothing justifies or excuses rape won’t change the fact that there are a lot of women who get pummeled and pumped because they are stupid (and often arrogant) enough to walk though life with the equivalent of a I’M A STUPID, CONNIVING BITCH – PLEASE RAPE ME neon sign glowing above their empty little narcissistic heads.^ source Paul Elam, AVfM Blog

It is important that a woman’s “noes” be respected and her “yeses” be respected. And it is also important when her nonverbal “yeses” (tongues still touching) conflict with those verbal “noes” that the man not be put in jail for choosing the “yes” over the “no.” He might just be trying to become her fantasy. source Warren Farrell, The Myth of Male Power

These are both revolting views of women victims of rape, but they also lead me to wonder whether they believe these things about men who are raped by other men or (as the law in the UK stands at the moment) sexually assaulted by women? Because, if they do, then they aren't men's rights activists at all, they are rapists rights activists and should be recognised as such.

At no point has anyone denied that women can and do sexually assault men, ritamin. We believe you.

It makes me sad that so-called MRAs take such a victim blaming approach to rape and sexual assault, it must make their male readers who have also been victims of those crimes feel really awful

Ah, Manboobz. What an authority on all things feminist he is. Such depth.

WhentheRed
Also totally agree with everything you said :)

ritamin I said that the response refuted the MRA bollocks surrounding the report, I did not say it refuted female on male sexual assault.

Indeed the CDC make it clear that this report solely focuses on the victims and not the perpetrators:

D. As the study population is U.S. adults in non-institutional settings, the sample was designed to be representative of the study population, not the perpetrator population (therefore no sampling or weighting is done for the undefined universe of perpetrators). Hence, while the data can be analyzed to make statistical inferences about the victimization of U.S. adults residing in non-institutional settings, the NISVS data are incapable of lending support to any national estimates of the perpetrator population, let alone estimates of perpetrators of a specific form of violence (say, rape or being-made-to-penetrate).

You have linked to a blog that regurgitates the figures that my link, by the people who wrote the report, refuted.

This sentence within your 'source' sums it up:

This huge victim survey made a surprising finding. It suggested that the rates of men being forced to penetrate women over the past year was identical to the rates of women reporting being raped, each 1.1%

Why just repeat what I just refuted?

If you had a terrible experience I am sorry for you, that was not what I was referring to.

These statistics have been routinely misused by MRAs (yourself included). All I am saying is that the report can in no way help you prove any point about the prevalence of female on male sexual aggression.

That is all.

By all means, commission a study, but with this particular source you are out of luck.

With regards to your original post:

I'm not an MRA, but I'm familiar with the works of most of the thought leaders in the movement.

MRA ' thought leaders' . Really?

Paul Elam - manboobz.com/2010/11/14/paul-elams-vanishing-post-blaming-and-mocking-rape-victims/

Warren Farrell - manboobz.com/2013/05/03/putting-warren-farrells-notorious-comments-on-exciting-date-rape-in-context/

If this is what constitutes thought, the mind, it boggles.

Stop playing 'reasonable mens human rights activist'. I see you.

WRT to the NISVS response, there is basically no refutation that female-on-male sexual aggression is not an issue, it just takes a very long time to explain (quite rightly) that a specific attempt to quantify it is flawwed.

Note in particular the apples argument. This is theoretically true and adds significant noise to the calculation. However, this would only give a significant difference if we assumed that all the men were forced to penetrate by a small number of women, but the report does state:

"Across all types of violence, the majority of both female and male victims reported experiencing violence from one perpetrator"

It goes on later to give more figures for this later on.

For those of you desperate to believe that this can't possibly be an issue, I will link to the following, which lists a number of empirical studies going back to the 80s that all corroborate the very real existence of female sexual aggression.

freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/2013/09/04/the-startling-facts-on-female-sexual-aggression/

Remember that it wasn't that long ago that everyone believed that rape barely happened at all, try stepping back from what you think you know and asking if there is just maybe a chance that there is more going on than you are regularly made aware of.