OK. Please can we talk about women raping men?

Redline you understand it completely .

SF:
As feminists focus on male on female. One in 3 lesbians experiencing partner sexual assault is pretty prevalent too, wouldn't you say? Ergo they don't actually care about women, they really only care about hating men etc...

There are a lot more straight women, and lesbians too, raped by men than lesbians raped by other lesbians. This is because lesbians comprise a very small proportion of the female population.

Since rape by men affects both straight and lesbian women and since vastly more women of all stripes are affected by that crime than sexual assault by other women, I think it makes sense to point out that it happens and to try to provide services to help victims, and of course to try to put an end to it. Rape is such a priority that nobody even knows how to count instances of the crime. Your analogy doesn't work.

I know a man now in his 40s who was targeted as a teenager by an older woman (who was imo a sexual predator and had very likely done the same thing before to others). The teen in question looked taller and more muscular than his age would warrant but she knew he was a minor. If his mother hadn't been very alert her son would have been assaulted.

Redline, you had a horrible experience at the hands of a cruel person, but by law it wasn't rape even in the US (same article as above).

I think there is a lot merit in broadening the definition of who can legally rape and be raped, and broadening the definition of rape to include anal and oral sex taken/inflicted without consent. I certainly think in the case of the US it behoves all people to fight to stop the attempts by the right to make the definition of rape apply to only a small portion of rapes -- see the last election campaign for a few horrifying comments by candidates in the context of abortion policy, and also reports of judges making remarks about rape, etc. Maybe now is the time to not just fight back against the religious right but to push further. I think including assault of men by women under the definition of rape would highlight the issue of consent, which is at the heart of rape. This issue of consent is not understood by enough people.

I believe Redline too. I am very sorry he was sexually assaulted by his ex.

He wasn't raped though, because he can't be raped by a woman. It doesn't matter whether or not a particular legislature has decided to water down the gendered nature of rape. It is what it is.

In this country it isn't a gender neutral crime but in many others it is.

I believe you Redline.

Rape is not a gender neutral crime. English law rightly recognises the specific nature of rape as an offence carried out by men on (predominantly) women. In a culture where women have long been oppressed by men, rape is one tool by which women's subordination is reinforced. It is also the only crime which can produce a child. Your individual situation (I'm not clear what it was, but don't feel obliged to elaborate) is sad and reflects your individual relationship with that woman. Women as a class are raised with the spectre of rape shadowing their entire lives by men they know and men they don't know. It is most certainly not a gender neutral crime.

If, as we have to assume, you're in the UK, then you cannot, under English law have been raped. What has happened to you, I'm guessing, as I found your posts so difficult to read, is awful, but isn't rape, it is sexual assault. It is the fault of society at large, and patriarchal society in particular, that sexual assault is seen as so much lesser than rape, but it isn't, as your posts attest.

Rape, by it's definition, isn't gender neutral, it is a violation of another, by a man, with his penis. Sexual assault, which is what you allege has happened to you, is gender neutral.

In This Country yes Florafox? Your description of rape as described by English Law (& I should know? I studied Law for nearly 4 years?) is correct but that's actually Not the case for other countries around the world which I believe is right? Rape is More? Much more than just a crime committed against Females? How many times do you hear women who Have suffered it talking about losing Their choice as to whether to participate or not? Being Upset & violated at the Lack of Consent on Their part? Now if That happens to a Man? I repeat? What is different about it?

As I said? This Countries Law May (Very Much Erroneously if you ask me?) View it as Only being possible for a rape to have occurred because a man has done it to a woman? But in a number of others? Including the United States? Rape is defined as occurring when a person has their Choice as to whether to participate in sex or not removed as being the Real Crime? And that? Can indeed be done To men as well as by them? I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree but I think if it can be (& is?) done to One sex? It is certainly possible it can be done To them as well by the other?

This article from The Oregon Herald; A US Newspaper?

www.oregonherald.com/bnews/story.htm?id=686

This one from PolicyMic.com (I think?) A US website with various legal articles

www.policymic.com/articles/3323/new-legal-definition-of-rape-shows-changing-attitude-towards-masculinity

And This One from LegalMatch - A US Law Site?

www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/rape-and-gender--can-a-woman-rape-a-man.html

All Help explain the view taken on Female On Male Rape & that it most certainly in all three views? Does exist in the US? I think myself that the Law there while often inferior to or derived from English Law in some ways? Has Much the better of English in this respect? Over there? Rape is a "Gender-Neutral" Crime & IMO? That's exactly What it is? If anyone asks me ever what went on with my ex'? I call it that as I had No choice as to whether to participate & we can spar all day about If it was Only Sexual Assault/Aggrevated SA or indeed Rape of some sort but I know deep down in my Heart - What it was & Just how violated I felt from it? And despite me not being female or some Ladies not agreeing with me? I Know that Deep Down I still feel like that now almost 4 years later? I always have done & I Always will do............[Sad]

I can't read your posts, redline, the punctuation is fucked, so it doesn't make any sense.

redline what you describe is assault and sexual assault. Rape requires penetration with a penis, it is a specific type of sexual assault carried out by men against women and less often against other men. Other sexual assaults can be serious and damaging but they are not rape.

Not true FloraFox & bein one of those (relatively) rare men who it Has happened to whose now Spoken about it & revealed just what was done to me 7 Times? Well I can tell you now that firstly I believe that UK Law is the one that has what is defined as the crime of Rape? Wrong & incomplete?

I say this for one Very Big Reason FloraFox? That being as English Law in respect of Rape? Well, it Only Ever (& Wrongly?) focuses on the Physical threat & differences between Men & Women that Means the vast majority of Rapes are done To women By Us Men & they are wrong yes? However there is another type of Rape to? One we rarely hear about as it's not just one that weaker men can & do use on women? It's one that women Can & Do carry out on men? One that I myself have had used on me at least 7 times by my ex'? It's a type of rape where the Consent of the victim is taken away by a mixture of physical force & threats/blackmail to Force them to comply or shut them up If they wake up with something happening to them?

I'm sorry but That is what was done to me & It Was Damn Well a form of Rape? It was done at least 7 times to me at the hands of the -horrific creatu-- My evil cow of an ex? I feel Very, Very Strongly Indeed about all this & kept it quiet for years before breaking down in tears after talkin to my Junior Barrister (a woman?) a couple of years ago in the case over my son while in a Court Side Room? I didn't hug, hold hands with or even Touch? Never Mind Want to be with or touch intimately with a woman for nearly 2 years because of all this? It completely screwed my head & emotions up? Wrecked me Mentally & left me often cryin for No reason or so it seemed? As one final blow? It then left me needing Counselling from a female counsellor now to help me get my head around it & understand & Try to move on from it all?

In addition to an operation that left me on painkillers nearly as strong as morphine for My Entire Life & with steel plates in my face that cause me awful headaches? Not to mention trouble walkin after tearing ankle ligaments & having terrible nosebleeds From that operation (which went Very wrong?) waay back in 2005? Well suffice to say what that dark evil thing Bch Did to me? Destroyed me for a while I'm not afraid to say? It also damaged me very, very deeply & then I read here you goin & putting that Women Cannot Rape Men as a Fact & implying that believing Otherwise? Is nothing But a Fantasy?

Well I'm Sorry FloraFox but I Do Not accept that At All & Never Will? Not Now? Not Ever.......Indeed? It actually makes me quite upset reading that & were it a man telling a woman Men Cannot rape them? He'd be castigated & rightly so? Why Should it be any different for me just because I'm a man? Humans Can rape each other & as I've Always said? The Real crime of Rape? Is not the physical act done by One Man/Woman To another Man/Woman? No the Real Crime is the absolute Removal &/or overriding of Their Free Will & Choice as to whether They are the ones who Want to have Sexual Intercourse Or Not? And That can happen all to easily to men & most definitely Can (& Does as I found out? ) happen to some Men at the hands of Women?

I'm sorry but to say Men Cannot Ever be raped Full Stop By Women? Is inaccurate & most certainly Wrong - I was? Seven Times at Least. And no-one will Ever, Ever convince me that This was anything But rapes she committed on & did to me with a mixture of blackmail & force that wouldn't work on another man (as I could die very easily If hit in the wrong place due to the Plates In My Face unlike most other people? And I do mean Instantly?) And the reason being? Because Rape? Is Exactly What it Was? I wish someone would believe me? To find you do not & even deny that such a crime as was done to Me Cannot Exist? Makes me feel more sad & upset than fo a long while? It Really Hurt me more than you will Ever know....................... Sigh

I will go now but I hope you read my words & my story above on this page (despite it's length?) in Full? Then just maybe? You will see & understand just How wrong your final assertion there was FloraFox? As I will end this by saying exactly What was done to me & tellin you? It most certainly Is Indeed possible? My Name? My Real Name? Is Simon - And my Ex' Raped me not once but a number of times & she Did it? By taking away My choice as to whether we Had sex or not? I hope you believe me in time as you, I or any other would (& Should) Any Woman who said this happened to her? Take Care? I think I'll go now as I need a lie-down & feel very sad with a headache at All the awful, dark & just very bad memories This & writing about it has brought me Yet again? I'm off to a dark room now for a sleep? Bye for now & keep well everyone & in future? I hope Someone Listens to what I have to say as I can assure you all? I most certainly Did Not Make all this up? It Was Done to me? And I Named what that Evil B**tch My Ex' did to me as being Rape Because Reason Being? That was Exactly What it Was & always will have been.................Sigh - [Sad]

It's very simple. Women cannot rape men. Anything otherwise is an MRA fantasy.

In my experience this is relatively common. I don't think the women involved see anything wrong with it even though they would naturally be horrified were it done to them.

Sorry I haven't replied on here for Ages & Ages payhisdebt? I Promise I Will answer your question re' How I escaped the Creatur 'Woman' that Did all that horrible stuff to me in full & address the whole situation properly soon when I have time but to answer it in short for now as to How I escaped her?

In short? I didn't - I eventually Made Her leave me? As to how? Simple? I broke her heart? Deliberately........ Yes it's Simple? And no doubt probably will be seen as a little cold some of you Ladies will probably think? And you'd be right but it was that or........Me Feeling for many years more than the 6 I actually did waste nearly completely (barring always of course our son?) with her?

Anyhow? She was actually the one who came to discuss us gettin back together a 3rd time that night she left me forever way back in February 2012? Suffice to say her pretence lasted only enough time for her to get through my front door into our (Me & My Son's now?) Home? After that? I got the Full Bloody Barrage from her? I could Feel the poison, venom & sheer hatred of me rolling Off of her in waves like dark, choking, almost tangible clouds? The very Air in our living room seemed to change As she spoke? And she didn't hold back either? As I said? I soon got absolutely F**king Bombarded by her about everything to Do with me practically?

She ranted & raved on about how I was an embarrassment, a waste of space, a disgrace, Not my son's Dad possibly (look at the two of us together & you'll See that little insult for the complete & utter Trash it was!! The Phrase 'Mini-me'? Really does not do the two of us justice? He's my double in All Bar Age? ); She carried on her crap & venom with stuff about How my son would forget me & (Most Hurtful of all?) Why didn't I just go Back to the hospital that gave me the operation that changed everything in my life in 2005 (& damn near ended it!! )? Why Didn't I go back, complete the job & just Die she said? The world would apparently be better off without me & my son would soon forget me she continued?

Anyway after that? I was already falling in love with a woman (soon to be my next Girlfriend & first after She had finally gone?) I Used something about that to break my Boy's mum's heart deliberately then? I'd just had enough & wanted her gone before you ask why I did this? I Knew My boy couldn't live with all this either not to mention being plain exhausted & battered myself (in body, heart & mind? from All the abuse of every sort?) After I did this to her? She showed me in a reaction she Tried so hard to hide just How much I'd hurt her? And then? She was gone - that was 2 & a bit years ago & 6 more of our Full relationship stood behind us by then? I still haven't recovered from the (Mental & Emotional Mainly?) Damage she did to me up to & including that night?

In truth? I don't know If I ever will? I Do know One thing though? Had she somehow worked it out with me & Stayed? One of us (probably me given just How & Evil bad she got towards the Very End with me?) Would Not be here now & I mean every word of that? I'm just glad she's gone now & I can have my life back? I'm rebuilding it with a new woman now & my son by my side until he's grown it? I'm not perfect but compared to what I Was stuck in with Her? I'm in As perfect a place as my life Will Ever Get now? And Long May that continue..........

Sorry this was long? It's actually the Short Version of what went on around Her Leaving & Why? I'll post the rest of the details another time? Suffice to say one thing though before I finish all this for now? I don't normally ever get bad enough about someone to Feel like this? But I really Do Hate Her for All she's done & for trying to drag our son into it all as well? Further to all that? I actually lost a child with the above mentioned next GF as well in the short 11 months we were together? And the Ex/My Boy's Mum Evil Witch Eventually managed (partly due to How I broke her heart in February 2012?) to eventually completely destroy (or cause the collapse of?) that entire relationship 2 days before Christmas 2012?

She did that in addition to ruining as well? 2 More of My relationships I've had Since Leaving her meaning she's ruined 3 of the 5 relationships I've been in Since leaving her which is more than Half? I'm with my 6th GF since Leaving her now & have been on & off since Start of December 2013 but we've been in a Full Relationship since New Year's Day? Suffice to say? My ex' will know Nothing about this one if I have anything to do with it? And I Fully intend to have plenty to do with it? And then some..............

Anyway all the crap from ex' after we Finally Split for good? Then soon led To My Ex' Girlfriend's Miscarriage? Something I will Never? Not Ever forgive my Boy's mum for & easily The Main reason Why I Truly Hate Her so much now? That anniversary (04-01-13 was when it happened?) was a few weeks ago as well so I've Not been coping great recently? Anyhow? I'm Sorry for the long wait & hope you & the other Lovely Ladies & Good Gents (There Are a few of us I know?) on here All Had Fantastic Christmases in the Holiday just gone on & Wonderful New Years to? Speak Again Soon payhisrent? Or you can inbox me if you like? Keep Well Everyone & I'll write again soon......

NB Thank You for All the support, understanding, Help & advice I've received on here? Both during The Very Worst Year of my life (2012) when I didn't see my boy for a very long time & nearly lost our home to? And all the times since? It means a lot & I'll Never Forget it or be able to put into words just How Very, Very Grateful I've been for all that I've gotten from Mumsnet Since I joined here & needed Help?

thank you for sharing, redline. how did you eventually manage to escape from your abuser?

NB And when I said "She threatened to hit me/tell lies about me to her family re' us arguing & a couple of others? I Actually meant something rather more specific - She threatened at least Twice? To tell her family that I had R*d Her? I didn't want to say that as it was bad enough that this was precisely what she'd done to me in the end but it's true? She also threatened to tell them that I'd coerced her with violence, threatened to take our son from her permanently?

This BTW? Is something that eventually happened after a court case lasting 3 years & her taking him away After we'd made an agreement at court with a judge that she kept for a month & then broke - Fleeing 400 miles away with him & igniting the Judge into a nuclear Explosion of temper the likes of which I've rarely seen inside a court & certainly Never seen aimed at a woman until then? To say he was enraged by her lack of faith in his word & the agreement we'd made & the way she broke it so flippantly? Well that's an understatement to say the least & it was her taking our son like that & in the words of the Boy's Social Worker? "Putting Her Own Needs above that of Her Child? That eventually paved the way for me to gain Permanent Residence & Full Custody of him where he now lives & is so much happier & settled just over one year Later? I hope that long may that continue.....

Anyhow As I said a year ago? The other 2 ways beside making threats of What she'd say to her family about me? Was either waiting until I was nearly asleep & then starting & Knowing that I'd not resist &/or ignoring me until she was finished & using whatever physical strength she needed (she was a big girl who used to play rugby & had a hard punch? She used to batter the hell out of me & hit me with all sorts - Tons of Domestic Violence? As well) to restrain & keep me there until she'd finished often with threats from her of hitting me in the Exact spot on my jaw that could kill me if hit wrong?

She either did the two above Or was also fond of waiting until I was actually asleep & when I woke up? Either again forcing me physically to stay there & finish Again with threats of hitting me in my vulnerable jaw spot or convincing me that I'd started willingly by saying "oh you agreed/you wanted this" etc so I remained quiet & complied even when I Knew I didn't want it?

Either way & whatever method she used? All Three were despicable & Just Wrong & I would say the same if a man had done this to a woman (although I know they often only use strength due to their advantage in that area?) I still think that This sort of blackmail is just as bad believe me? (And weaker men Do use similar tactics from time to time or so I've heard from a few ladies I've known down the years regarding the odd really bad bloke they've come across)

Whatever happened as I said & still believe? The Real Crime & the one that Truly defines you as having been raped whatever sex you or your attacker were IMO? Is that they All without fail? Removed my ability to have a Choice In whether I had sex or not? That in truth is what was & always will be wrong & something no-one man or woman should ever be forced to endure. I hope it would change & this sort of abuse by people against vulnerable others would end but with the world the nasty way it is in many ways? I suspect it may not change anytime soon.....................

Here's What happened to me as I wrote it on Mumsnet slightly more than a year ago:

"Yes in short; If you define rape as it should be defined (equally for both sexes) in terms of control & not physical features of our bodies (which IMO is how English law gets around admitting Men can be & are raped by women for reasons I know not) being the defining issue in rape? Then it becomes an issue whereby the rapist is taking something from their victim (control of their body) & having sexual intercourse with them without their consent? I'd say that pretty much is rape whatever sex the victim is.

More to the point? I speak with knowledge on this as thinking back over the 6 years of hell the evil sorceress my ex'-fiancee put me through? There was more than one occasion when she raped me by that definition. A number of times I 'interacted' (read had sex) with her in bed as she threatened to hit me/tell lies about me to her family re' us arguing & a couple of others? I got tired/felt wrong & asked her to stop & she didn't - I let her finish until we both you know.....But after? I felt tired, worn-out, uncomfortable & a physical wreck.

That? Was nothing like I normally did with her.......... Sorry not easy talking about this - I've never written it before as a man Also? I woke up once & she was initiating sex with me & hadn't asked me - That night of all nights? I'd just been getting over being ill so she knew I was in no state for sex but went ahead anyway. In truth? I never really trusted or enjoyed sex with her after the first such of those incidents never mind the others but we grew into a 'rut' together & eventually she stopped doing that when I told her how it was turning me off her & I wanted some say In what I did/didn't do with her - I guess I never thought of it as what I'm calling it now but looking back? These instances probably were Rape as I had no control in what I did in/during & certainly by the end of them all.

As I said? I never wanted to call those instances what they now clearly were but they were rape IMO in all but name under English law anyway. Not just that either - there were many, many other issues in our relationship & I hope to God they've not damaged our DS (whose now 3 & the light of our lives) going forward -he heard us argue often (about money usually), she was EA & committed DV against me knowing I'd not strike back & was (am) in a physical state due to an op' that nearly killed me 7 years back as well & she told (& tells) so many lies & has issues with who she trusts? It just became impossible to live with her in the end. Not sorry it's ended except for not seeing my little boy regularly now but that's another (longer) story for another time.............

In answer to the OP though & the question posed? YANBU - Men can be raped by women as it is just as possible for them to take our control away about whether we have sex sometimes - maybe not as often as men can (& do I know; I've read a lot of the accounts on here & they're sick at times - I'm often ashamed to be a man at times in truth ) with women but the issue of female on male rape? Does exist & it does go on - I know for certain - it's happened to me more than 7 times; Since I speak from bitter & painful experience? The overall answer is yes.

My dark secret is out now - I've written it And I never not ever thought I'd do that. I hope all such rape by anyone on anyone stops soon - it's a horrible thing to describe & still worse to experience; And that's something? I thought I'd never write as I was never going to tell a single soul about this - Feels odd having written it like this but 'tis the effect of MN? I think? Couldn't hide it any longer & just everything came out at a flood - sorry if my experiences or describing them upsets anyone? Is what happened to me was all; I just hope this horrid crime ends soon or is wiped out. We can but hope I guess..............

I wrote the following on Just this subject more than a Year ago (5th October 2012)? I will reproduce it in speechmarks in a minute but All I put is still relevant & taking me a Loooooong time to recover - It's probably even More relevant now than it was then to me & my life as it's taken me this long to come around to the idea of what happened to me & Just What my Evil Incarnate Rather Nasty ex-partner did to me but suffice to say? Yes Men most certainly Can be raped (in terms of having their Choice as to whether to partake in sexual intercourse removed which is the Real crime of Rape whatever sex is perpetrating & whichever one is suffering from it?)

As you may have guessed from my passionate advocacy of the fact that women can (& Do!!) rape men as men so often do them? I was in actual fact 'raped' & repeatedly so over a period of the 6 years me & her were together & though she often used more in the terms of threats mixed with physical force (which she could do not because she was stronger or more physically powerful than me but because I have a weakness due to an old -8 years ago now?- operation in a particular part of my face that means If I am hit in the wrong place & by the wrong (i.e. to strong?) strength of punch/attack, I can & probably Will die or be injured to the point of eventual death?

Anyway? Here's my story - I hope it opens a few eyes not just to the Hell I had to live through back then but to something that given my own experience & the sheer amount of time, walls & barriers (In my Own head more than anything else?) that I had to break down to voice what was done to me in public? And which I suspect many men in this position may also suffer from? Well I also hope it opens a few peoples' eyes to something that is I suspect if not as common as Male on Female Rape? Then something (Female on Male Rape?) Which is certainly IMO? Rather more common than many may actually think? Difference is it's just nearly Never spoken of by many men as I can testify? That doesn't mean it Does Not Happen? Indeed quite the opposite may be true but in the end with this problem & the issue of it Having to be confronted? I suspect that as with all else? Time will tell - Sooner or later? Time will tell..........

Will include my story in my next post else this one? Will probably end up Far To Large on it's own? Hope no-one minds........

Urgh, I'm glad I stopped following this thread.

I came back to share today's Buzzfeed from Project Unbreakable (link on page.)
Trigger warning. I found it extremely upsetting/moving, and I'm not a man who has been raped.

Ritamin, I'm sorry you were raped and subsequently abused. I'm sorry you were taunted about it by others. I'm sorry you've been disbelieved. Thank you for telling your story.

Haven't got time to comment right now, but glancing through the thread it appears Sigmund/Sam really got her knickers in a twist with the links to Paul Elam's hateful misogyny.

MRA pissed, my work here is done.

I don't believe that Paul Elam is a hateful misogynist at all, I said I didn't agree with this particular article, which is fair enough I think.

I never claimed to be special or unique either. I'm not.

Relax Sam no one's reporting you. Calm down. It's not news to us that hateful misogynists exist, you are not some sort of brave iconoclast for pointing that out. Nothing special. Except perhaps as an uncommon example of a Good Woman at an MRA meet.

'the MRA view'

Paul Elam is an MRA, he is not the MRA. That's a little like saying Sheila Jeffries is the default feminist, representative of feminist thought.

Sorry. It must really gall you that in RL people can voice opinions that don't tally with yours, however they can't be moderated or banned, and if you reported them you'd look a little odd.