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Original poster

AIBU? And I could do with some support

69 replies

kickassangel · 24/08/2013 22:01

So, I grew up in a family where my father was not to be upset. What he wanted went. Apparently this was because he worked, so we all had to be sympathetic and he never had to do the dishes, or vacuum etc.

I hated it, he gets very upset very easily, is pretty OCD about routine and people not touching his things etc. I think of my childhood as unhappy and me being controlled a lot.

Now I have been staying with my sister and family. Today we were getting ready for a big party tomorrow for my parents' 50th wedding anniversary. My sister, 2 nieces and dd and I have worked flat out all day. Her dh is in the garage doing work on a car. This is his hobby on one of his many classic cars, not an essential repair.

All day we have provided cups of tea and meals. Then my younger niece came in and said she's told her dad she was busy right now (she was) and if he wanted tea immediately he could make it himself. My sister sighed and said that she wished her daughter wouldn't upset him like that.

This is just my childhood all over again, isn't it? The father being the great I AM and no one else is allowed to upset him or contradict him. When not working he does what he wants, and everyone else does all the typical female servitude..

If I dared express such opinions I would be told that I am awkward. AIBU to think like this. In my head I'm not, but everyone around me would tell me otherwise.

OP posts:
Original poster
kickassangel · 29/08/2013 18:41

That us how I often deal with stuff, but it can backfire or they start doing back to me. It is openly accepted that dad is difficult, but we still have to do what he wants most the time. Compromise is few and far between

OP posts:
Original poster
kickassangel · 29/08/2013 18:38

That us how I often deal with stuff, but it can backfire or they start doing back to me. It is openly accepted that dad is difficult, but we still have to do what he wants most the time. Compromise is few and far between

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TVTonight · 29/08/2013 17:45

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TVTonight · 29/08/2013 17:43

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Original poster
kickassangel · 29/08/2013 17:23

i wrote a long response last night that got lost when I posted.

Anyway - for whatever reason, I do feel like I owe them something.

I agree with the principle of respecting your parents, but that has got twisted to having to let them behave any way they want and never being allowed to resist. My Dad's behaviour can be really appalling. e.g. one time there was a car booster seat in the front hall. He didn't know if it was from his car or my sister's. He ended up standing in the hallway, shaking with rage/frustration and yelling "IS THIS OUR CAR SEAT?" I had already answered him 3 times so I yelled back "NO".

My Dad had wanted my mum to answer so he ignored/didn't hear me (Mum was in another room, I was standing next tohim). A few days later Mum had words with me about it, telling me I should never shout at my father, he can't help it cos he gets upset (well so do I, and guess where I learnt the behaviour from) and can't help it.

I told her that I thought letting him behave like that, even after he had been given a quiet, polite response to his initial question (which wasn't asked politely) was wrong and upsetting. As I left the room my mum said 'grow up' just loud enough to hear, but quiet enough to ignore.

I almost went back and told her how I had an unhappy childhood and it was no accident that I lived 4,000 miles away.

If he behaves like that, it's bullying imo. Also, why is it OK to leave me so upset I'm in my room crying, but he shouts then she rushes around to calm him down? She just values his feelings and happiness more than mine, doesn't she.

It has got worse now they live just the two of them - probably because she has to live with any fall out.

OP posts:
garlicbargain · 29/08/2013 00:56

I feel so so bad as my parents are very supportive on the big stuff, but around them there is a definite way I should behave.

I wasn't sure whether to elaborate on this yet as I'm afraid of shocking you, but am emboldened by Bewildered's highly appropriate reaction. You are not indentured to your parents and sister. You are not required to 'pay' for their support by accepting belittlement or insults.

Does it feel as if you are?

BitBewildered · 29/08/2013 00:45

Now, am I harsh, as I was doing something else. Or should I have got up and got my Dad a sausage, even though he was standing there with nothing else to do?

No, you are not harsh. I am astonished by that story.

garlicbargain · 29/08/2013 00:09

It's not petty, Kickass. It's your conditioning - and your sister's - the conditioning your parents were responsible for, and with which you are now lumbered. Identifying such issues, and then working to free yourself of them, is a massive ask; in some ways it's like doing a total gut-and-rebuild of your personality! I've often said I don't blame those who choose not to "see" or to question. Trouble is, once you have seen, it's impossible to re-embed yourself in the dysfunction. I rather suspect that those of us who end up having to work through it, are the ones who were 'misfits' because we knew it was wrong early on.

Some things have happened around my 'golden' sister, who is quite narcissistic. She replicated the family dynamic, with a bullying husband and a house full of violent rows. Another thing replicated was the scapegoating of the eldest. I'm the eldest, too, so when her eldest was suffering at being picked on again, I decided to explain it to him - in simple terms; he was about ten, I think. I said that families often repeat patterns like this, usually without noticing. I said it just seems the way life is to them, but it isn't fair. I told him I was blamed for everything, just like him, but I was not a bad kid and neither was he. It was just our bad luck that our family expects too much of the eldest, and dumps too much blame on that child when things go wrong. My sister was listening. She corroborated what I'd said, without expanding.

In a more recent development, she's acknowledged the truth about what a bastard our dad was (she denied it for decades,) and has even altered her style of reminiscence so far as to call him "Bad Granddad" when talking to the kids Grin It's little and late for them - they have pronounced relationship problems and shaky self-worth - but it's better than we got.

It's worth ploughing through it, imo. There are ways of holding and respecting the truth within yourself - and of sharing it - while avoiding confrontations. A lot of the sharing seems to happen like magic, once you've clarified your own position to yourself. It's not magic; it's the cumulative effect of small, almost unconscious, alterations in your manner of communication.

One obvious example from your 'sausage' story would be your mother's quite horrible remark. You could just say "I'm not harsh." You could follow that up with "I'm serving the children," and/or "Dad, will you just get your sausage, please, while everyone's busy?" Just a little thing, but lots of little things make a difference :)

Original poster
kickassangel · 28/08/2013 22:39

Yeah. I try some subtle interference. It was just this last trip made me see how much dsis and family was replicating my childhood.

The stuff I give examples of is so petty but it happens all the time, so it gets so wearing. Then I feel so so bad as my parents are very supportive on the big stuff, but around them there is a definite way I should behave.

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Loopytiles · 28/08/2013 22:24

Your poor DNieces, the "golden child" too as well as the one who's more like you! Sad

All kinds of things come out in formal speeches, find them uncomfortable listening sometimes.

In your shoes I wouldn't be able to help myself, if I really cared about DNs and Dsis was unlikely to listen or change things, would probably end up interfering, like saying things to the DNs about my upbringing and DF, how hard it was, equality, and share books that might make them think a bit. And let them know was there to talk. But this could obviously go wrong and upset the family!

Maybe less of a risk for you as you're not living near them (?) so could interfere subtly, from a distance!

grimbletart · 28/08/2013 21:37

kickass: I would have been tempted to lead him to his chair, sit him down, tie a bib round his neck, cut up his food and feed him, as he is clearly as helpless as a toddler.

Original poster
kickassangel · 28/08/2013 20:07

OK - so one example.

My mum had cooked lunch, then the phone rang. So I dished up the food. Dad was right there. I asked him if he wanted a sausage. He said yes. So I put a sausage on his plate, he carried it outside, put the plate down, then realized it was only 1 sausage, and he wanted 2. Stood there looking concerned.

I said oops sorry. By then I was sitting down, giving dd veg etc. Mum also sitting down, Dad still standing.

Trying to be helpful, I said, 'there's spare sausages in the pan, you can get your self one"

mum said, "you're a harsh woman. won't you get it for him?"

Now, am I harsh, as I was doing something else. Or should I have got up and got my Dad a sausage, even though he was standing there with nothing else to do?

This is completely typical of how the family runs.

OP posts:
Original poster
kickassangel · 27/08/2013 22:51

Oh my mum is totally the one who tells me to behave and do as I'm told. Just like my sister tells her younger dd. in both cases we're the younger daughter, and the older dd seems to be the golden child in comparison. It's not quite that black and white but that is the basic dynamic. I feel quite like the family scapegoat.

I think it's telling that my mum and sister both tend to refer to me and our dds as one homogenous group, as if I'm one of the kids.

OP posts:
Pan · 27/08/2013 21:35

kickass - read the thread. You've said nothing about your mum in all of this? Yes she was/is a SAHM but where does she stand with you? Is she 'there-there dear' or is she too quietly supportive? Do you know? I ask as she will have strong feelings about all of her dds and she is a player in this.

And, it's never too late to make things plain. When my dad went to live in Spain (aged 60) me and my sisters had quite a difficult session with him to inform him who we saw things happen over the years, and how his conduct affected us. He understood some of it.

The speaking plainly, and poss line-drawing, will lift a big element of your frustrations. You won't have any control over how the pieces may fall, but to maintain the integrity of the relationship plain speaking assists in the TA analysis above.

Original poster
kickassangel · 27/08/2013 21:10

Home again. Going to order the book later and think things over.

When I'm not there I don't believe myself; surely it can't be as bad as it feels when I am there

OP posts:
Original poster
kickassangel · 26/08/2013 08:14

Oh I know that.

I have already been told that she has inherited the awkward gene from me! And there are many comments about how she behaves just like I do and sounds like me. And ATM I take the path of least resistance by fitting in. Imagine what will happen if I make a stand.

But however much I may help her, it's her parents that she wants acceptance and validation from, not me. There's nothing I can do about that. Hmm

It is so truly bizarre that I get blamed for this, as we've never lived anywhere near each other. If you add up all the time we've spent together, it may be as much as a year in total. I will definitely try to find some ways of dealing with this, but won't be back in the UK until next summer, so you will have to wait a while for an update.

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LovesBeingOnHoliday · 26/08/2013 06:41

Op are you prepared for the blame and possible fall out you'll get for you dn in the future? Every decision and strength she displays will be cast against you.

garlicagain · 26/08/2013 00:24

It really is about coping emotionally :) That's a great example to set the nieces, too. I hope you do get something new from it - please update if you remember!

Original poster
kickassangel · 26/08/2013 00:16

Thanks for that. Some of those things I have tried, but with varying success. If it's at my sisters I can get away with it, but I find it harder with the nieces around as i don't want them to see so much conflict. At my parents house I would be reprimanded for being selfish or stubborn.

I like the idea of the I'm ok thing, but not sure my parents are open minded enough to cope if I start talking like that.

One time they were horrified that my BFF had given her kids their dad's surname as she isn't married to her dp. They genuinely didn't believe me that this could be legal. I tried telling them the law but they wouldn't have it. In their world, illegitimate children can't possibly have the dads name. They really are stuck in their own life that they can't see beyond it.

But I will definitely read the book. It may not make much practical Impact, but if I can cope better emotionally it would make trips home easier.

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garlicagain · 25/08/2013 23:35

bugger
three-quarters of the way down

garlicagain · 25/08/2013 23:34

Yes, yes, it does show the value system in which your dad - and whole family - have lived. I repeat, you are a marvellous exception and I hope you will encourage your promisingly exceptional niece!

What I am going to suggest is what you've suggested endlessly to yourself. Perhaps it will help to have it said by others, in other ways. Adopt the principle of I'm OK, you're OK. (Here's the book, if you don't know it.) It is a fundamental assertive principle that you are the only qualified judge of your own behaviour, and everyone else is the judge of theirs. This doesn't stop you having opinions. But it does presuppose everyone's sovereign right to be treated with respect.

When your sister chuckles patronisingly at your modern ways, one assertive response would be with DESC scripting (h2g2.com/approved_entry/A2998551 three-quarters of the way down]].) In this case, your assertion would be something like: "When you belittle me like that, I feel you look down on me. I'd like you to acknowledge my point of view, then we'll get along better."

A related approach comes through Transactional Analysis. You sister has gone into Parent mode around you, and you've unconsciously reacted by feeling like a frustrated Child. The way forward with TA is to respond in the other person's mode - in this case, Parent - and then talk them down into reasonable Adult mode (or have a Parental argument, if the mood takes you!) A Parental response to her patronisation might be somewhat like "Sister, have you really not noticed it's the 21st century? You talk as though we were in Jane Austen novel! [indulgent chuckle]" If you can steer the resultant conversation to a DESC and agreement, you have done a marvellously Adult transaction :)

This is an essay, but I shall doggedly continue Wink

When BIL asks for a cuppa, your assertive response is something like "Not now, I'm finishing some work." If he's a machisto grown-up, he'll ask you how long you'll be. It's then up to you to decide whether to allow tea in forty minutes, or to say you can't make his tea right now and suggest he puts the kettle on. IT DOESN'T MATTER what he thinks of you, or what you think of them. All that matters is you taking your responsibility for your own self, and allowing them to take theirs.

I'm really curious to know whether this is any help? Small changes in the ways we interact with others can wreak tremendous changes in those relationships; the core point, always, is that you're OK. So are they. It's merely a matter of finding ways to make this clear :)

FWIW, I was elected to speak for my siblings at my psychopath father's funeral. I didn't say he was lovely. I told the truth, in an OK/OK way. I'm still very proud of this, and my speech was very well regarded. You don't have to pussyfoot, neither do you have to rage.

Original poster
kickassangel · 25/08/2013 22:08

And Dad's speech was a lot about his work, his hobbies, and how mum had been his partner and support throughout. Mum was mainly a SAHM, but she did everything in the house, and raising us two. It got mentioned, but not a huge amount. The whole thing was "behind every man is a great woman" to a T. No mention of mum running the PTA or charity work or her literature studies etc etc.

Everyone just nodded along. I can't think of one of the people in the room who would chat later about how it was so biased. There were about 60 people there, and they all would comment on what a nice speech it was. It was MEANT to be a speech to thank my mum for 50 years together! Shock

Now my Dad is definitely not NT in some way, so it doesn't surprise me that he lost his way a bit and focused on the wrong thing, but doesn't it just show the value system that he got side tracked into talking about his life, not about mum. This was a prepared speech, carefully rehearsed, not a spur of the moment panic thing.

The thing is, these people love me, and have supported me in many ways. It does feel ungrateful to then criticize them, but I wish that they could love me for who I am, without trying to force me to be like them. I'm not trying to convert them into radical feminism, I just want to be allowed to be myself without the tutting and frowning. They just can't let a different idea exist within the family, we all have to be the same.

OP posts:
Original poster
kickassangel · 25/08/2013 21:57

See, my problem is that I can't live by my beliefs. E.g. Man of the house wants a cup of tea, if I am nearby, I am expected to make it.

Either I can say, "no, I'm busy, could you at least stick the kettle on or wait half an hour?" In which case I would be deemed awkward and saying that just to prove a point(if he has time to come to the kitchen, he has time to at least stick the kettle on).

Or, I make the tea, but then I am pissed off about making all the tea and being interrupted from my work.

If I start talking about my beliefs, then there is talking and the kind of laughter people do when they want to show you how ridiculous you've just been.

E.g. Dsis and I were writing our toast. She can't stand if people do things differently from her, so kept wanting to re write my things. I don't mind collaboration, I am good at it, but she changed every sentence. At one point she wanted to change something where I put our parents' names, as I had put dad's name, then mum's. I was trying to alternate so we didn't always put one before the other. She insisted that it was ladies first. I pointed out that IF that had ever been the convention, it was at least 30 years out of date, and that in writing, formal speaking etc, usually it is Mr and Mrs. Ladies first was about going through doors or getting into cars so that men could hold the door as women often had clothing that encumbered them. She couldn't have treated me more like an amusing but exasperating five year old if she tried.

My dsis is the one of my immediate family who shows me the MOST respect and listens to me most.

No wonder I was a stroppy teen, this is how I lived!

OP posts:
ILoveSpaniels · 25/08/2013 21:36

Sorry Sparkley...I know you meant that and that did actually come across in your post! I didn't mean to imply you were insulting them...just that I wanted to throw into the ring some good (actually - WONDERFUL) things about so many manual-working-dads!!!

Your dad sounds brilliant!!!

Sparklysilversequins · 25/08/2013 21:12

I was in NO way criticising manual workers in my post. My own father was in the army, an infantry man, which apparently is the bottom of the heap in the forces and was a great Dad when we were children.

I was describing the dynamic between them where this degree educated and super intelligent woman is ground down and ruled over by a man just because he is a man.