Men, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Hate is a very strong word. Feminism has diluted it's meaning, along with misogyny. Chuck words around enough and they become meaningless.

not aware enough
not smart enough
just are in denial
just don't care

I think that's pretty much a good summary to be honest.

Just because a person is not aware/not educated/in denial/don't care... doesn't mean it's not still an issue.

Buffy, no I don't want to silence anyone, you included. That is why I want to discuss politely, rather than read, think to myself "ha, tough titty, stop whining", and carry on enjoying my superiority (only joking).

By the same token, other women haven't experienced the hatred. They have said so, right here. And I know you don't want to silence them. So where does that leave us? Does this culture only hate some women? Because I guess you can't speak for all, which is what Ms Penny seems to want to do. The alternative is that some women are just not aware enough, not smart enough or just are in denial. And that smacks more of a religion to me than a political philosophy.

Cisco, just because society gives some benefits to women, it doesn't't logically follow that women have the same benefits as me. So we get mat leave, great, but we're not 51% of govt, or 51% of company bosses, or 51% of holding the wealth. Men aren't 49% of the child carers and caring for the elderly etc.

So we live in a society that is structurally balanced in favor of men, which mainly benefits men over women, ie it is woman hating.because the only reason to structurally ensure that women don't have equal access to decision making and wealth and power is because there is the belief that women are somehow less deserving of those things than men.

And saying that society hates women is not the same as saying that every single man hates women. Men are taller than women does n to mean that every single man is taller than every single woman, it is a statement talking about averages across a large population. The two things aren't the same.

'If discrimination no longer existed, we wouldn't need all women short lists and similar policies.'........nothing to do with discrimination, women don't want these jobs, because of the hours and time away from family.

'But I would like for any woman who does want to be a CEO to have the same chance to get there as any man.'

I believe 100% that they do. Companies are under pressure to hire more women, so actually, I think that have more of a chance.

Buffy, Lemonmuffin and I both said that we, and the women we know, so not just 'I'.

That was actually very good, most of the articles similar to that aren't very good and I glaze over in tedium in a matter of minutes, but I actually read that to the end in interest.

kareningalasmith.wordpress.com/2013/04/29/this-thing-about-male-victims/

If discrimination no longer existed, we wouldn't need all women short lists and similar policies.

Buffy, what qualifies me to judge? Well, all the stuff I have mentioned as evidence a few pages back, and that I mentioned (briefly) at 13:07. A culture that actively hates women would not, in my opinion, even allow a sniff of the following;

1. Women to benefit from any part of the education system - not one single aspect - GCSE, A level, degree etc.,
2. women to outlive men - which is a combination of lifestyle, healthcare and environment,
3. legislation for equal pay and equal employment opportunity,
4. Maternity leave, and free prescriptions when pregnant,

Now, before anyone leaps in, these are all a good thing. Not bad. Good. And my point is not that they are perfect, or all work 100 per cent, or don't fail sometimes, or are not works in progress, or have only been introduced relatively recently.

My point is that legislation is a product of the society and culture it arises from. And a culture that hates women would not allow these things to even get off the ground. Ever. So, by my logic, a culture that has such legislation, that has allowed it to occur at all cannot HATE women.

"Women don't want these jobs because of prioritizing family life, they just don't want them, accept & move on. I CBA to wax lyrical about this one today, I have 6 children in my house"

Exactly SF! I've been working for the last 20 years and the last thing I want now is one of these high powered, full-time, boardroom jobs. Couldnt think of anything worse tbh. I had my child a few years ago and I was damn glad to be out of the full time workplace and so were most of my friends. Not every woman wants the same, some of us love staying at home.

And if it was'nt for DP's earnings and his hard graft it wouldnt be possible, let me tell you. I'm grateful for it because there is no way I could ever do his job, or even want to.

did Buffy's question get answered yet?

"If women in the UK aren't the major victims of sexism, then who is? In the UK. Men?

If so, could you elaborate as to how they are discriminated against?"

I class myself as a feminist, and I have a son. I am not gunning for him. I hope that he will be a feminist too. I can't see why anyone would ever hope that their offspring (male or female) would be anything else.

www.shakesville.com/2009/11/meet-predators.html

this research is about 5 yrs old
it shows about 1 in 12 men has attempted or completed rape

'Can I ask what you think a feminist is?'

a tad misguided. And gunning for my sons.