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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

336 replies

curlew · 16/08/2013 16:24

Fantastic article by Laurie Penny

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DuelingFanjo · 19/08/2013 17:09

because it makes no sense that anyone would default to gun play if guns are not on their radar.

SigmundFraude · 19/08/2013 17:07

'Yes - boys are often socialised to be 'into' guns but it's not a default.'

How do you know this?

DuelingFanjo · 19/08/2013 17:02

that article is about America isn't it? American schools in a country where firearms are seen as 'Normal'?

That kind of gun toting behaviour is typical boy behaviour according to the author. I don't really see anything typical about it. Yes - boys are often socialised to be 'into' guns but it's not a default. Plus I don't think it is schools that are making boys struggle in education, there are so many more factors in all childrens lives which make staying on in education seem like a pointless waste of time. This can happen to girls too, don't you think?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 19/08/2013 16:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SigmundFraude · 19/08/2013 16:44

'SF - specifically what issues?'

Well currently, the feminisation of the school system (see link above). The high suicide rate for men and boys, obviously that's a concern for me, the attack on male sexuality etc..

SigmundFraude · 19/08/2013 16:40

I have a blog, am in the process of compiling a repository of links for another blog. These are private currently. I'm compiling a repository because I get fed up of being asked to 'link please'! But I would like anyone to be able to access the links, so it's like a library for all! I have about 2000 links in my bookmarks bar, so I'm shifting them over.

This is one, and it's in response to curlews concern over my 'gunning for boys' comment. It's in the US, but very clear parallels can be drawn with the UK:

ideas.time.com/2013/08/19/school-has-become-too-hostile-to-boys/?hpt=hp_t3

I have signed various e-petitions, the last one was to include boys in the HPV vaccine. I support various groups on Facebook, blogs, financial support very occasionally (as I'm skint). I discuss boys issues in RL etc..

So I'm not an 'out there' soapboxer, but that might change when the boys are older, not sure.

I'm not anyone to bother about much, truly. But I do appreciate being able to speak fairly freely on here (despite many trying to shut me down, I hasten to add).

curlew · 19/08/2013 16:23

SF - please could you say what issues you advocate and campaign for your boys and men on?

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scallopsrgreat · 19/08/2013 16:22

"I think it is done to both genders, by both genders. Moreso to women? Possibly. And as part of fixing it, they could stop wearing skimpy outfits, or posing with their tits out, or supporting bimbo stereotypes. As part of, mind, this wont fix everything. Get Jordan and all those reality TV arseholes on here and tell them I said so." Really? So it is only possibly done more to women yet you only cite women as being the problem and they are the ones who should cover up? Big contradiction there. In addition, the market for objectifying women is demand led i.e. by men. How about they change their attitudes and start treating women as human beings with feelings and all. Not too much to ask is it?

So stating facts, stating what happens to women everyday is "bandied about like top trumps". It isn't feminists who 'bandy' around stuff. It is those who are denying women's reality.

"I think they have to abandon any semblance of a normal family life though. In short, they have to do what men have always done." Why? Because what men are and do is the default. women are expected to fit in around men, and as you so effectively say, be like men. Why not look at the whole system and instead of having it geared up for men with no childcare responsibilities, how about setting up workplaces that enable all to work effectively in them?

"As Nietzche said, the are no facts, only interpretations. Or something Grin" Yeah thanks for making light of male violence against women there. I am pretty certain if it were happening to you it wouldn't be so fucking funny.

curlew · 19/08/2013 16:20

2 women a week are killed by their male partners.

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Bunnylion · 19/08/2013 16:19

SF - specifically what issues?

I'm honestly not goading, just genuinely interested in your views and how you define feminism.

kickassangel · 19/08/2013 16:18

Cisco, there are many different statistics, and I have heard that the rates of female to male domestic violence vary anything between 40% and 0.2%. It varies the most according to the number of incidents or the number of victims (so one man assaulted once and one woman assaulted 9 times can count as a 50:50 split or 1:9, depending on whether you count the person involved or the number of attacks).

But there has never once been a survey that came up with a 50:50 split. So women are always shown as the larger proportion of the victims. No matter which statistic is used, women are the main victims. How can you say that that isn't due to a society that sees women as being less in some way? How can a society that has those figures year after year, NOT count as being a society that hates women? Attacking your partner is almost always an act of hatred (except for the very few times when a victim cracks and retaliates). The figures are utterly consistent in one thing. Women are victims more than men. And not enough is being done to change that. Women are vulnerable in a way that men aren't.

curlew · 19/08/2013 16:18

What do you campaign for?

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SigmundFraude · 19/08/2013 16:16

I advocate and campaign on behalf of my boys and men generally, so you can call me an MRA if you really want to label me, but I prefer libertarian, however not especially bothered. There are aspects of feminism that I can go with, and do include in my daily life, but way too much that I take issue with.

curlew · 19/08/2013 16:08

Can we jut be clear, and declare interests.

I am a feminist. Not a radical feminist. A feminist.

Is anyone on here a MRA?

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CiscoKid · 19/08/2013 16:03

Cisco- do you think men and women have complete equality of opportunity in the UK? Nope. I don't think all men have it, and I don't think all women have it.

Do you think that the sexual objectification of women in the press and other media is a myth? Nope. I think it is done to both genders, by both genders. Moreso to women? Possibly. And as part of fixing it, they could stop wearing skimpy outfits, or posing with their tits out, or supporting bimbo stereotypes. As part of, mind, this wont fix everything. Get Jordan and all those reality TV arseholes on here and tell them I said so.

Do you think that perpetrators of domestic violence are men and women equally? I honestly don't know. Too many contradictory statistics on here. I think when men do carry it out, it is liable to be more dangerous due to greater strength. I have a friend who is a copper, and he sees the fall-out of both. If it's 90-10, or 70-30, or 50-50, it is still too much. I think it is bandied about like top trumps when debated though.

Do you think there is nothing stopping a woman rising to the top except her drive to get there? More and more, yes. I heard Woman's Hour with 3 women CEO's on recently. They were all against quotas. I think women can make it, yes. I think they have to abandon any semblance of a normal family life though. In short, they have to do what men have always done.

As Nietzche said, the are no facts, only interpretations. Or something Grin

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 19/08/2013 15:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

curlew · 19/08/2013 15:34

I am very perturbed by it. It strikes me as a offensive thing to say.

Can you come up with some specifics about how feminists are attacking your sons?

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SigmundFraude · 19/08/2013 15:30

Ok, well I've been giving this some thought whilst I've been shoveling little girls under the stairs and making the little boys watch Top Gear!

It's easier for me to discuss my issues with feminism than define it, really. I'm struggling to define it.

You seem very perturbed by my off the cuff comment about gunning for my sons curlew. I mean that feminists appear to be attacking my sons psychologically and within society with the women=good/ men=bad model. And by feminists, I mean 'as a group', rather than individually.

curlew · 19/08/2013 15:12

And "gunning for my sons"

What does that mean?

Or are you conveniently suddenly too busy to explain that either?

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Bunnylion · 19/08/2013 15:09

SF - well if they're little boys then into the cupboard under the stairs with them Grin

SigmundFraude · 19/08/2013 15:07

'I'd also like to hear your definition of feminism when you have a minute.'

Ok, but will have to be later....I need to discipline a number of unruly, stress inducing minors!

Bunnylion · 19/08/2013 15:01

SF - Some women have no interest in being a CEO, or financially independent, or running the country, or owning property, or of being primary carer of children, house and home - does this mean we shouldn't try to change a culture that makes it difficult for those who really do?

No one here can speak for the choices and ambitions of each individual person, but I would imagine that we would all want to strive toward a culture that doesn't restrict anyone's personal ambitions based on their sex - be it a CEO or a SAHP. This is my understanding of the feminist view of equal opportunities.

I'd also like to hear your definition of feminism when you have a minute.

JuliaScurr · 19/08/2013 14:53

you know disciplines like politics and sociology deal with generalities? That doesn't mean there are no exceptions. It does mean that some things are true in general, for the majority, on average, most of the time.

It is the case that men kill 2 women a week. It is true that men sexually abuse 1 in 4 women. Those things are still true even if you don't know any women it has happened to.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 19/08/2013 14:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

curlew · 19/08/2013 14:25

Like"gunning for your sons?"

What did you mean?

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