Men, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Or what curlew said sooo much better than me !

"Why do you assume that they act differently with men?" I don't assume. I see it.

on the question of what is oppression - I think if someone is unable to ezcape from a situation, even if it is fairly low level discrimination, then it is oppressive. For example, if I have a bad employer but I can change jobs, that isn't oppression. If I live in a society where women are paid less than men (around 80%, depending on stats) then it doesn't matter where I work, I will have that discrimination, so that is oppressive.

Sadly, we DO live in a society where women earn less than men (comparing like with like for qualificationes, experience etc), so it IS oppressive. I hate that I have to fight hard to get the recognition I need at work, that it is assumed that I have the 'second job' etc.

And as we do live in a society that treats women as secondary to men, then the onus should be on men to correct this. We don't expect victimes in other situations to fight their own battles, why do we expect women to do this? The civil rights movement wasn't saying that black people in the US needed to change. It said that black people could and would be equal, and that white people had to instigate the changes to make it happen. Men hold more power and wealth than women, therefore they have the means to instigate changes. So if they aren't trying to bring about change, they are passively allowing opression and discrimation to continue - they ARE part of the problem.

fwiw - in US Congress, men who have daughters, even Republicans, are more likely to vote in favor of equal rights legislation for women than men who don't have daughters. In other words, once men see it affecting their own children, they start to see the inequality. Until then, an "I'm all right, Jack", mentality prevails.

You are misreading me. It is up to those men to recognise their problem and change. Why do you assume that they act differently with men? I don't think they do. In my experience, and arsehole is an arsehole regardless of situation.

And that is women's problem why...? Why should we have to put up with shit because some men can't "distinguish between wanted and unwanted attention"? And those men... I bet they have no problem distinguishing between wanted and unwanted attention with other men and work colleagues. Strange how their social skills depart them when it comes to objectifying women.

The problem seems to be that some men cannot - or will not - distinguish between wanted and unwanted attention. I think you will find that these men are deficient in other areas of life and social skills, not just attitudes towards women.

And it is disingenuous to suggest that women don't already change their behaviour to avoid objectification, insults, stares etc. Most women modify their behaviour to a certain extent to avoid unwanted attention from men. It just shouldn't have to be that way.

Yep and I am saying men are the ones doing the harm. They sohould be the ones changing.

Scallops, I was careful to state more than once that both men and women's attitudes have to change.

Women can wear what they want, go where they want, act how they want within the law. If they want to show lots of skin, good for them. Girl power and all that. If they want to go on TV, or pose in lads mags, that is their choice. I am comfortable with that because I cannot influence them. All I can do is not buy those mags and papers, and that is my choice. And I would tell my daughter not to do it because I think it is a sad and pathetic choice of action.

kim I find I agree with using the term more when I think of it as structural oppression -- that society is structured to benefit men (as a group) and women (as a group) suffer because of this.

This is also why I brought up the issue of other countries, because if you want to convince people that women are oppressed in the UK, you have to deal with the problem that most people's idea of oppression is what's happening in places like Afghanistan. The differences are so stark that simply saying 'well they're more oppressed^ is not going to convince everyone.

I personally did not see our posts as whataboutery (great word btw!) I even explicitly said I was not saying that.

I understand it's very annoying to get the 'what about' comments but I feel like there is this sort of kneejerk reaction anytime anyone even mentions other countries. I know I can start threads just about those issues but isn't that kind of ghetto-izing them?

By shutting down conversations about other countries just because some people misuse them -- well, that's just letting the twats win, isn't it? And they'll just go off and think they're right. Whereas actually discussing things might educate some people and change some minds.

I mean, you can't ignore the fact that women (as a group) are better off in the UK than in Afghanistan. I think not talking about it encourages a 'stop complaining' attitude, it's only through more and more discussion that we can show people that there is still a battle to fight at home.

CiskoKid

"Those that pose are the ones being harmed. So, why have they not responded to the arguments that their actions are harmful to women as a group? From a point of self-preservation, and for the good of their fellow women, why have they not responded to 40 years of evidence and debate?...." Why indeed have men not responded? Women aren't harming themselves when they pose. Women aren't harming themselves when they dress in mini-skirts, tight shorts etc. It is men's attitudes and more that harms them. In our society the onus is usually on the person who perpetuates harm to change, not the other way round. Except of course when it is harm to women. Then the women are expected to change and that isn't just confined to objectification issues.

DadWasHere:

"I prioritised my children and in doing so it did away with any possibility of advancement in my profession. Brick wall." Precisely. Yet it seems to be OK to expect women to do this. And this is why the workplace needs to change so that man with no childcare responsibilities is not the default.

"They may change nappies but they don't enjoy it." And women do? I am 99.9999% certain it isn't in anyone's DNA to enjoy nappy changing. And it is pretty insulting that you have an expectation that women do boring, drudgy type jobs because we enjoy them. We do it because it has to be done and we care about our children. Why men just don't do it for those reasons, I can only surmise.

"The other thing that bugs me is paternity testing, it should be mandatory for all couples." WTAF??? So what if you aren't the biological father? Would you love a child less because of that? Because that is a bit creepy, controlling and treating children like possessions.

Gosh it doesn't matter what happens 9 times out of 10, I don't think it was happening on this thread. We were talking about whether culture hates women and I think it's fair enough to discuss variations in culture. Do you really want to live in a little Western-centric bubble, where Western culture is the only one worth discussing in depth? You say it didn't add anything, well it might have if people had been willing to discuss it more. I could certainly share a lot of the on-the-ground perspectives about how women in other countries feel they are oppressed, that go way beyond the burqa.

I don't think it's patronising to speak of other women's lives when those women are not allowed or are unable to share their experiences with the wider world. That's the whole point isn't it? As long as you approach it ethically and respectfully, then it's actually important to try to tell people about what's going on.

So by all means go after people who are being idiots, but I don't agree with sweeping statements like, I wish people wouldn't bring other countries into these discussions. Why not actually wait and see if people know what they're talking about?

Btw I talk about Afghanistan because it's one of the countries I have experience with and that everyone has heard of. My actual country of focus, people say things like, oh isn't that that made-up country that Borat is from.

DadWasHere, did you have your children DNA tested to confirm paternity?

DadWasHere, paternity testing for all babies because 1-2% are not their supposed fathers' is, to my mind, ludicrous and vastly insulting. I would not consent to being screened for fidelity because a tiny percentage of mothers are deceitful. Consider how you might feel if all men were required to bank a DNA sample because a percentage of men rape women. Women who have been raped deserve justice and men who rape deserve to be caught, so lets screen all men, just in case.

MRA? (google). No, I am not a MRA. I recognise women are behind the eight ball in society in many ways. Much of what passes for a need of male rights really just needs men to turn around and have a good hard look at themselves and how they want to live their lives, nothing at all to do with women. That said I will never extend respect to anyone simply because they identify as a feminist, any more than I would extend automatic respect to a minister of a religion. It was nonsense like that that allowed evil in the Catholic church to fester untroubled for decades.

In regards to MRA..hmm. I can only think of two issues that bug me. I really wish people could get over the idea of men being in infant childcare and to a much lesser extent primary school teaching. Thank god that gender effect is gone by high school otherwise all kids would exit school gender twisted. Too many men see a male taking on that role as unmanly and suspicious the younger the children and too many women see it as suspect and potentially hazardous. Thank the gods attitudes are slowly changing in society.

The other thing that bugs me is paternity testing, it should be mandatory for all couples. As it stands now hospitals protect themselves to make absolutely sure the baby leaves to go home with the right mother. Reality is between 1 and 2 percent of children conceived in marriage were not sired by the wife?s spouse and those men have a right to know that. Of course, once again, the problem goes back to male thinking, because men are already so sure of what they know they don?t want to question the possibility of anything different to what they believe to be true.

WhentheRed 07:25:05 ?However, the key difference between the article she wrote and the Jezebel article are in what the writers want from men. All the Jezebel article asks of men is to believe that feminists don't hate men. Laurie Penny wants men not to stand on the sidelines but to get involved.?

Precisely. Apparently we find ourselves in agreement once again. One asks less, yet will achieve what the other wants but cannot. Irony. Support is what happens when you effectively convince people you don?t hate them, oddly enough. Wasting a paragraph of space on the wonders of the human brain just to deliver a one-line put-down to the people you want something from is not an effective pitch.

Scallopsrgreat: ?The other question to ask with Sigmund's assertions is why aren't men wanting to prioritise children? They are their children too? Could socialisation have something to do with it? Just maybe? The off chance perhaps? As kim said several times up thread. Cultural and socialisation changes take a lot longer to overcome.?

I prioritised my children and in doing so it did away with any possibility of advancement in my profession. Brick wall. You could make a hit list of professions that would have that effect, some more extreme than mine. Politics.. hands on male parenting would be a huge hit against it. Teaching.. that would probably be the easiest to streamline.

Sadly many men are decent fathers but they are not dads. They provide but they do not nurture. They may change nappies but they don't enjoy it. In primitive times that was the way the role had to be to survive, it still is in many places in the world. Engaged mums are still far more common than engaged dads. As to culture and socialisation, you are right, but I fear it may go down as deep as a DNA level.

Bottom line more related to feminism is that I don't feel parental leave from the workforce will ever allow women to be... hmm.. unstigmatised in taking it... until at least 40% of the leave takers are men, 30% at bare minimum.