Men, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

But can you imagine what a women from another culture would make of the word "oppression"? Sorry Kim, I don't understand what you mean by this.

Also are you suggesting that the western culture doesn't actively oppress women? Because that's not true. Maybe it isn't as bad as or as obvious as other countries but, for example, we have the same rate of rape in the UK as Delhi do.

With regards female journalists do you ever read the Liz Jones threads on here? Because they certainly blame her and women's magazines are always being blamed for poor body image. Women are always blamed for policing other women with regards how they look, what they wear how they behave. Out in RL women's behaviour is scrutinised to a much greater extent than men's. And it is significant that the newspapers and magazines are run by men because the root of this is misogyny. And that comes from men.

It isn't other women who shout at and harass women in the street, commenting on parts of their body or what they look like. It isn't women who are threatening women who have opinions with rape or calling them "ugly bitches". It isn't other women objectifying women. It isn't other women treating women as the 'sex' class. And this is why some feminists like to focus on male behaviour, because that is the root. I can't remember who said it but probably someone like MacKinnon, if men weren't sexist there would be no sexism.

With regards how far you go challenging sexism well how ever far you are comfortable with. Men can generally go further than women with that, because when men speak of sexism it is taken more seriously (just look at the adulation David Mitchell got for uttering a few words of feminism a couple of years ago or Dustin Hoffman more recently). With regards SAHM/WOHM/part-time working etc I would certainly challenge it (and have) if the man thought that childcare was women's work and not his responsibility. But if it was a couple who was just trying to do the best for their family then no. I might discuss the problems of cost of childcare, gender pay gap, women more likely to be offered part-time work, more women working in the public sector because of that etc etc. But I wouldn't challenge them (other than raise their awareness/conciousness) and make them feel bad about decisions made for practical reasons in the context of a society that pushes them towards those decisions.

I think that the point Penny was making on that is that men's voices can seem to be absent when challenging sexism. And she would like to see more of them.

A fair assumption. No-one's commented on my earlier comparison btw..

kim I completely agree with both your points, well stated.

Sorry about italics fails - hope it's clear enough

The joy over Co-op demanding "pervert pouches"...I mean, why? Why use that language? Not everyone uses that language, but I agree that language is very important.

And there is hypocrisy. Front/Loaded are PORN for PERVERTS but it's ok for men to walk around a supermarket filled with 9 foot high Rob Pattinson and Taylor Lautner shirtless. Page 3 is an abomination, but the Diet Coke man is a bit of harmless fun.
It's about degree. When a man is sexually objectified it is one facet of all the ways men are portrayed. When a woman is sexually objectified it's the dominant portrayal. Mind you, I have never heard the same people criticising Pg 3 and supporting the Diet Coke guy. (Again, heres an example of the difference in degree - there have been 2 Diet Coke guys in 30 years, and a different Page 3 girl every day for 40 years)

You try talking to most men about their experiences of pregnancy. There is no attempt to include them at any point. And before the inevitable "poor men" comments, all the men I know, know damn well that it's all about the mum. They'd just like to be included. But included how, exactly? Who is keeping them out? I can only speak form my own experiences here, but every man I know has been as included as he wanted to be. Except for the medical side of things obviously. But he has picked baby names, kicked tyres in the buggy shop, done as much as they wanted picking out little outfits etc, which tbh hasn't been much. There mates have brought them out for last nights of freedom and wetting the baby heads,( which is more than I got, for obvious reasons!) What exactly is it they feel they are missing out on? I genuinely don't know.

How many clueless man adverts do you see every day? Whether it's useless fathers (Argos, Thomas Cook) or clueless men (Yorkie, any advert involving a cleaning product), men are told they are shit every day. I can't even think of one baby product that has a dad shown on it.

Feminists hate this. It promotes keeping women on the kitchen and men out of it. Whereas feminists believe everyone is equally capable of putting powder in the washing machine or changing a nappy.

You want to see when the white male doesn't have power? Talk to a divorcee.
Or, talk to a divorced mother, who is left in the shit.
Talk to the 40% of men that make up the domestically abused.
Most of these were one - off's - still unacceptable, of course - but a different dynamic to ongoing, sustained abuse.

Or the 1 in 7 victims of rape that happens to be male. Rape Crisis proudly boasts it "campaigns continuously to raise awareness of sexual violence, its prevalence and effects and, in particular, we highlight the importance and need for appropriate, high-quality and specialised support for survivors. We challenge attitudes and press for change" but doesn't even acknowledge that male rape exists. Who the hell do they turn to?That's just inaccurate Try Rape Crisis here

Or here, dedicated male support

You can't demand inequality then act surprised that men don't want that.
That is not what is happening
Why not campaign for the changes that men could get behind? I can tell you right now, men don't want rapists to get away with it
Great
they just don't want guilt determined before a trial.
It would be great if guilt could be determined during a trial. But that is not what happens.
I'm sure most men would be happy to discuss sexual imagery in the media, but they're going to want that to include men,
Great, again
and they're probably going to want to talk about the wall of DIET / BUY / DIVORCE / CHEATER magazines that take up a third of the magazine section. Why? One thing at a time.
Why not push for better paternity leave for men? That would move the pressure away from women in the workplace. Feminists do support that strongly

Demand equality, We do
and you might just find that men and women aren't actually that far apart in their opinions. I'd like to think so. seems to be taking a while to manifest though.

You don't seem to well informed about feminism

kim I know a lot of people who complain about some of the female writers in the DM for that reason - myself included!

I don't think that the article is perpetuating a "them and us" culture of women vs men where all women are good and all men are bad. This particular article just happens to be addressing the men - saying that even if you're a really decent guy and don't personally make the world worst for women then you should still actively challenge incidents that make up a sexist culture.

How far you go is up to the individual judgement. The article is not saying to interrogate part time working women or full time working men about their specific situations, but everyone should be conscious of the society we like in, think about it more, don't just get washed along with "that's just how things are" and when appropriate women and men should feel free to question and challenge it.

I am sorry I don't understand curlew, I am not British, I have no frame of reference to understand your point about cbeebies Vs BBC2. But I believe the articles are fundamentally different, not 'practically the same' as you say. If I simply wanted to piss off a man for the fun that is in it I would send him your link. If I wanted to educate him, assuming he could understand it, I would send him mine.

I could go on at length about why I think that but if you want to make it about issues which would you like to discuss? Do I recognise that my teenage daughters are socially disadvantaged more than teenage boys? Yes, I recognised it long before they were born. Are they advancing female respect and improving social clarity in the way they conduct themselves in the world? Absolutely.

Would love to read the article mentioned in the OP but there is an ad for Talk Talk Tv that moves down the page as you try to read said article and there is no x in the box to get rid of it.
Thanks Talk Talk.

Its a poor quality article whose content lives up to the aspirations of its tittle: "Of course all men don?t hate women." (face-palm)

Try this infinitely better one instead, it actually talks to men, as opposed to pretending to talk to them for the benefit of the female audience watching the show:

jezebel.com/5992479/if-i-admit-that-hating-men-is-a-thing-will-you-stop-turning-it-into-a-self+fulfilling-prophecy

Good post Sarabi.

It reminded me about something I wanted to point out..

"unless they are actively calling people out on it, they are condoning it and become part of the problem rather than solution."

There was an interesting thread on AIBU, it was suggesting that we all have a responsibility to take issue with people being aggressive towards/shouting at/swearing at their children. I would agree with that to an extent, but personally, I would certainly think twice in some circumstances, i.e shouting. Would you think that my not getting involved with every bit of bad parenting I see means I endorse 'abusive parenting'. Some posters were saying 'Well, you don't know the situation that has caused the parental outburst'. But being a shit, aggressive, sweary parent harms your kids doesn't it? Am I some kind of apologist because I would not confront a stranger for a 'lesser' parental crime? Isn't raising a child as well as you can a good contributer to his/her success in adult life?

Feminists expect men to take issue with every bit of sexism etc etc they see. If not, they are an apologist, a misogynist. They are supposed to point out to other men their failings, no matter what that failing is. I personally feel in this situation most men are doomed to be cast into that role (and it conveniently perpetuates the men=bad model), just the same as I could be cast into the role of endorsing child abuse because I wouldn't take issue with everything I see in RL.

IYSWIM.

unless they are actively calling people out on it, they are condoning it and become part of the problem rather than solution.

Of course, by exactly the same logic, any man that doesn't comment against a feminist issue supports it.

But you sum up the problem. It's the inflammatory language. That's why men get angry. Because they get called perverts/rapists/abusers/cheaters/lazy parents because they "disagree" by having no opinion. Because the actions of the few are accepted as the norm.

It happens on here all the time. The endless threads about Front and Loaded were full of comments calling men rapists and perverts, normally because the men didn't care. Probably because most of them don't read it and don't show it to their kids, so it has exactly zero effect on their life. The joy over Co-op demanding "pervert pouches"...I mean, why? Why use that language?

And there is hypocrisy. Front/Loaded are PORN for PERVERTS but it's ok for men to walk around a supermarket filled with 9 foot high Rob Pattinson and Taylor Lautner shirtless. Page 3 is an abomination, but the Diet Coke man is a bit of harmless fun.

Men are constantly told they don't understand sexism. They really do, it's just in different situations.

You try talking to most men about their experiences of pregnancy. There is no attempt to include them at any point. And before the inevitable "poor men" comments, all the men I know, know damn well that it's all about the mum. They'd just like to be included.

How many clueless man adverts do you see every day? Whether it's useless fathers (Argos, Thomas Cook) or clueless men (Yorkie, any advert involving a cleaning product), men are told they are shit every day. I can't even think of one baby product that has a dad shown on it.

You want to see when the white male doesn't have power? Talk to a divorcee. Talk to the 40% of men that make up the domestically abused. Or the 1 in 7 victims of rape that happens to be male. Rape Crisis proudly boasts it "campaigns continuously to raise awareness of sexual violence, its prevalence and effects and, in particular, we highlight the importance and need for appropriate, high-quality and specialised support for survivors. We challenge attitudes and press for change" but doesn't even acknowledge that male rape exists. Who the hell do they turn to?

You can't demand inequality then act surprised that men don't want that. Why not campaign for the changes that men could get behind? I can tell you right now, men don't want rapists to get away with it - they just don't want guilt determined before a trial. I'm sure most men would be happy to discuss sexual imagery in the media, but they're going to want that to include men, and they're probably going to want to talk about the wall of DIET / BUY / DIVORCE / CHEATER magazines that take up a third of the magazine section. Why not push for better paternity leave for men? That would move the pressure away from women in the workplace.

Demand equality, and you might just find that men and women aren't actually that far apart in their opinions.

Laurie Penny most definitely isn't a radical feminist She doesn't identify as one and radical feminists wouldn't identify her as one either. And what she is espousing in the article isn't radical feminism either. It is just straight common or garden feminism i.e. the recognition of structural oppression.

I'll repeat a very clear point that curlew made earlier addressing the argument that there is no male privilege because there are equality laws:

Legislation is in place to produce equality. But it doesn't- because the culture of the country prevents it.

If you don't understand or you disagree with this statement then I'd like to know why you think women are beaten, raped, paid less for equal work, stalked and do most menial work in the home, in the office etc etc?

Is it due to their low ability, intellect, strength of character or simply their choice? And before you answer that, remember - choice cannot ever operate in a bubble outside of culture.

It's refreshing to see misogyny being referred to as a premiss. It generally gets treated as an axiom on here. The article in the op certainly treats it as an axiom.

What I see on this thread, and in the article, is a refusal to substantiate, question, analyse or justify the core beliefs of radical feminism. While this continues, why should the remaining 99.99% of humanity take any notice? Radical feminism will remain an obscure and impotent fringe faction.

Cisco:Did you read the link about the lowest difficulty setting? If not, kindly fuckoff and do so before you post again.