Men, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

It's always the same people in these threads, shouting about how there's no such thing as opression and misogyny. Is that the only reason they are on mumsnet?

And I think my point was that the legal oppression that still exists in Scotland today stems from exactly the same place that it does in other countries that continue to actively oppress women in a legal sense.

Rape myths are enshrined in centuries of law - I was amazed to find that we are only a handful of years ahead of some of these countries. And it stems from a belief that is worldwide that women tempt men, that they should cover up, that a good woman fights off her attacker, that a family is shamed by a woman being raped. We're less than ten years away from this being the established case law in Scotland, not Pakistan or Saudi or wherever, but Scotland. So yes, it may be less bleak than other countries but it's still soul destroying. And it's even slower to filter down to cultural attitudes.

Yes I realise what you mean now kim, thanks for the clarification.

Lack of legal oppression doesn't mean lack of cultural oppression.

Take Scotland, in the 21st century, we needed a legal discussion on whether the crime of rape could be called rape if there was no evidence of force. The ruling which came out stated that there was no need of force but one of the Judges disagreed and continues to argue that this is simply a practice direction but does not change the established case law in Scotland that requires rape to involve force.

Force is considered necessary to ensure that the woman was not consenting - that pretty much assumes that the woman would be lying otherwise. And when you look behind it, the reason that there required to be force was that rape was a capital crime - now that sounds like it was viewed as a serious crime against women ? Well, no, it was because rape was a crime against men - a man guilty of rape was defiling another man's possession, so in order for the court to justifysentencing a rapist to be executed, they wanted signs of force to be there as clear evidence of the crime.

Now, the significance of that in Scotland today is that whilst in a practical sense evidence of force is no longer required for a guilty verdict, technically, it is. And many Judges still believe that a practice direction is not law nor can it be.

I think a woman in Scotland, unable to get her rapist convicted, because of this, is oppressed legally and culturally.

Rambling but the point is that much of the legislation that oppressed women in the UK has only recently been dismantled and that in cultural terms, we have a considerable way to go.

as someone with more than one braincell I can recognise a spectrum when I see one.

As someone who has also travelled in Middle Eastern countries, women in the UK are not even close to being oppressed. As for a spectrum of oppression, that would be like trying to claim you've suffered amputation when your fingernails are cut.

a really boring person would probably point out that having a law which prohibits discrimination is probably not so amazing if in practice it is ignored or applied haphazardly

ho hum.

it must be cheering to know that there is no legal basis for discrimination against you in this country, when you are

a 12 year old groomed by a paedophile ring, no one cares, social workers state you are making your own life choices

made redundant when pregnant

have your report of rape no crimed by a special sexual assault team

Oh massive cross post (I am so slow at getting my ideas out!!!) I do think I worded my original post crassly. As I posted it I was uneasy for the reasons dreaming said. I didn't want to compare.

I absolutely didn't mean to compare. And I apologise that it came across that way. But kim did imply that the UK culture didn't actively oppress and I don't think that is true. Women are oppressed by male violence all the time. I only used the example of comparing rapes in Delhi to here as it might shock people that we have that many rapes, per capita in this country. I absolutely did not intend to diminish the experiences of women in other countries and apologies for doing that. It was very badly worded by me.

Discrimination and hateful attitudes are all parts of oppression though. They limit your experiences of life. They make you change your behaviour. That's oppression.

And playing oppression top trumps doesn't help anyone.

The root of it all, whether denying women access to education in Afghanistan or blaming a rape victim in the UK, all has the same source which is that women are deemed lesser. The practical manner in how that is expressed is different but the cause is what needs addressed.

Funny how the men on this thread and SF assume there's no solution required because there isn't a problem in the first place.

I was at a dinner party tonight and someone was regaling us with a funny story about a friend who visited a local brothel. The comments were generally about how he was a bit of a character but there was no condemnation of his behaviour. It would have been much easier to join in the conversation and laugh along with everyone but doesn't that make me complicit in condoning it ?

Yes, it was a bit tedious to point out that his behaviour was reprehensible and that the 'pretty little girl' was probably disgusted by him. After a bit of predictable eye rolling about humourless feminists, it became clear that quite a few people were disgusted by his behaviour but didn't want to comment as it was more modern, liberal or permissive to simply 'live and let live'. No one wanted to be the first to condemn his behaviour so they all appeared to be mildly amused by it and yet, many present, when given "permission" to speak out, were quite vocal in their condemnation and quite a few of the men admitted that they had just never thought about the bleaker side of prostitution.

It led to a discussion about the Everyday Sexism project and there was genuine surprise from many of the men present who were hearing for the first time in their lives about the crap that women had to put up with and a few uncomfortable admissions that their own behaviour could be seen as sexual assault or discrimination. It simply hadn't occurred to them. Maybe the discussion will mean that they'll be more aware in the future but at the very least, it raised their consciousness that there is a problem. Not life changing stuff for the men involved but certainly for some of the women present.

So yes, if you don't speak out then you are part of the problem. If you want to live in an equal, fair and just society then you don't get to abdicate personal responsibility when these principles are breached.

scallops I think what kim is saying is pretty clear. There is a huge variation in how women are oppressed and maltreated throughout the world, and to say simply 'culture hates women' does not reflect that, and also does not allow for variation in responses to it.

Please, do not compare what women go through in the UK to what women endure in Afghanistan. Please, really, don't. I've been there and it's a completely different world. What happens in the UK is not just 'less bad' or 'less obvious', it is an entirely different universe.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying (contra curlew) that this means women in the UK should just sit back and think themselves lucky. Obviously not! But to say that what happens in the UK and in Afghanistan all falls under the same category of oppression -- I'm sorry, but surely there must be room in your theorising for such extremes of experience. It is not just a matter of degree, they are fundamentally different manifestations of sexism.

'But if it happened much, there's probably be a bit of it on the media, don't you think?'

There is. I read it all the time in the Daily Mail (which I unashamedly enjoy reading btw!), I was reading some stuff today about some famous bloke saying that men who say women are unfunny should STFU. He didn't mention women that find women unfunny.

Look, I'm a woman, and I have never been called accusatory (to the best of my knowledge) in RL. I have spoken to feminists in real life, and they have been accusatory towards me. On here they have called me a misogynist etc.

It's not about women having an opinion that makes them accusatory, I've said this before, it's all about the delivery. And yes people should think about how they say things, because it makes the difference between people listening or switching off. I don't accept that men aren't considered accusatory btw, because if a man speaks to me in an accusatory tone, then he's accusatory. Ditto women.

Another thing, if 'people are always saying that', then maybe they have a point.

Btw..I wasn't saying you were accusatory. I've said that word too many times now.

'However, it would be nice if they took issue sometimes.'

What makes you think that they don't? You aren't privy to every interaction between every male.

'And it would be good if they didn't say "I'll only take issue with sexism if you ask me nicely"'

Well I find the feminist (as a group) accusatory tone pretty riling, so God knows how I'd find it if I was a man. It doesn't surprise me that they say that, in all honesty.

Yes, that exactly curlew.

Also meant to say great post SinisterSal.