Is it possible to be a good Christian at the same time as being a feminist?

yes FairPhyllis. I understand that. Unfortunately I attended a Catholic School where there were 12 apostles, end of.

I think you point is where the wriggle room comes in......just not for me though.

I don't understand the relationship Christians have with God as one of submission. It should be a joyful relationship that you enter into freely - otherwise what's the point of having free will?

grimble A lot of Christian feminists though would consider that the Apostolic Mandate was given to both men and women, because women would have been present at the Last Supper too. That's one of the arguments in favour of women priests. There's also a long tradition of Mary Magdalene being called the Apostle to the Apostles, because she first spread the news of the Resurrection.

I'm sure many women find a way of reconciling their feminism with Christianity. Religions seem to have so much wriggle room that people will find a way round the things they are uncomfortable with and justify it.

I can't do that. Religion and equality/feminism are to me incompatible.

But for those that can find the wriggle room in Christianity good for you.

Jesus was a good bloke though and from reading the New Testament I like to think his attitude to sexism and misogyny would probably have been the same as his attitude to the money lenders in the temple. Mind you even he chickened out to convention when it came to female apostles.

I didn't describe my wedding in my previous post. No-one gave me away, and Dh and I made identical vows and exchanged rings. The sermon was about marriage as a shared secure foundation from which the couple can go out into the world, together and separately, in ways that might include having children but not necessarily. Was lovely and there was nothing even faintly unfeminist about it.

I'm not sure I'd argue too strongly for the "submit" bit because actually we don't ask our kids to "submit" that much, they can and do question us. I think it is a product of the time.

But then I grew up in a church where we were always being told about how wonderful Susanna Wesley was (mother of John Wesley). And about her disciplining her sons, bringing them up to be god fearing, and her children not approaching her when she was praying. Of course they didn't talk about the fact that Samuel and Susanna Wesley didn't speak to each other for most of their married life after a theological disagreement.

The best verse I think is the "In Christ there is no male or female, no slave or free" which sums up a basic truth.

Unfortunately the church has too often been full of people who get mislead by power, or thinking they are right therefore if you disagree you must be wrong.

I'm so glad to have stumbled across this thread. This is something I really struggle with to. My church is very adamant that man is 'the boss' and women must submit. As was the church I was raised in. I'm in Northern Ireland and from what I can see, all the churches here are like that. And of course, they argue that any church that doesn't agree with this is in fact not a true Christian church etc, so its a huge struggle for me.

Absolutely it is. For me, being a Christian is all about love, kindness and helping those less fortunate. Nothing that conflicts in any way with basic feminism, which is also about love, respect, and standing up for those who are oppressed.

I am a Christian and Feminist.

The Church is not perfect. The worst wedding I went to the Vicar preached on "Matrimony means the making of Mothers", you can tell it was bad 25 years later I still remember it. The ladies loo was full of women complaining about how awful it was.

Most Vicars and Bishops I know would think exactly the same.
The bit about wives submitting to Husbands is often divorced from the next bit which is about husbands love their wives as Jesus did; which logically means men should be prepared to die for their wives. But that aspect is often glossed over, although I think it was the real message of the passage (as it was the bit that would have shocked people).

SummerHoliDidi I am very pleased you have found a church that welcomes you. The best wedding I ever went to was her second, she'd had 3 children by her first husband, then had 5 more by her DP. Its only when they stopped having babies that they got married. But it was a lovely Church event, held after the morning service and followed by a bring and share reception.

I'm a Christian and a feminist (liberal high Anglican, if that's relevant). The Church gets hundreds of things wrong, because it's a human institution, but then so do others. My college chaplain was an inspirational Christian feminist and is one of the toughest-minded academics I know. She's still a good friend.

I'm also ferociously pro-choice, more so as I get older. It seems to me that the legal question - should abortion be legally available to women - is completely separate from the ethical one, which can only be answered in the individual case by the woman whose body it is. There are circumstances where I wouldn't terminate but another woman might, and that's her choice to make, not mine.

Italian I know you see it like that and I'm not trying to convince you otherwise so I won't go off topic here and argue about whether the Christian God is an abusive character.

I'm simply saying I don't think believing there is a personality who by right is "better" than you and so should be accorded a say over your life is liberation. As such I find it somewhat at odds with feminism. But I don't think that means you can't be a feminist and a Christian. Life isn't perfec, and you can't simply unbelieve. I don't think liberation is served by the idea of some sort of "true path", it shouldn't be a religion of its own!

(And I know there are amazing Christian women doing amazing things. I have seen them. But there are also amazing non-Christian women doing amazing things, We can find power within ourselves too.)

RufousBartleby I am sorry for your loss and hope you will get some support if you need it.

Summer how do you feel about not being married and having children with your DP. Do you feel committed to each other and supported? It's an interesting thread, thanks for starting it.

Emmeline I find it heartbreaking that you find it heartbreaking. Submission to God is a very dramatic way to talk about it. It is not an abusive relationship, although at times in the church there is abuse, and that is heartbreaking too. Now it is late and I must submit my body to the mattress upstairs. Sometimes it is actually a rest to be in the place you are meant to be and that is what it feels like with God. Not difficult or troublesome but peaceful and good, and if you see the amazing work of Christian women you would know that they are never ever any less then men. It is cruel historical twist that has led to the church using the Bible to subdue women and it is not (in my humble belief) at all what God intended.

I'm a feminist and a Christian (and an evangelical one at that). I promised to obey my husband because I was in love and thought it was nice and actually it doesn't agree with what I believe as a Christian. I am glad/normal/ very lucky in that my dh doesn't want to lord it over me at all, and so my vow in church all those years ago was just a part of our overall marriage, which the Bible tells me is about submitting to each other or as the Message puts it....

Ephesians 5:21 Out of respect for Christ, be courteously reverent to one another.

I believe this is about a marriage relationship and not about how all women respond to all men or men or women to each other. Actually in agreeing to live alongside each other to some extent we have submitted to each other. However, this does not mean either had the right to abuse, ill-treat or rule over the other.

Ruling over someone is the result of sin entering the world.

This may explain it better www.gotquestions.org/desire-husband-rule.html

Christ' work is to destroy the works of the evil one (1 John 3:8) so Christ's desire is not to have disharmony and struggle between the sexes. For example pain in childbirth was one of the results of the fall, yet in Timothy it talks about women being saved or kept safe through childbirth. A reversal of the original consequence of the fall (not a punishment, a consequence). So for me my own brand of evangelical 9and slightly liberal) Christian faith makes perfect sense alongside feminism since both are concerned with a world which will be just and fair for all.

Laurie To me it's an oxymoron that submission is liberating. The more I hear Christians talk about their faith in those sorts of terms, the more I think I'm listening to someone trying to explain why they're in an abusive relationship. I find it a bit heartbreaking. :(

emmeline - a Christian would say that submission to God is liberating

On the matter of Christian feminists, certainly many of the the stories, rituals and set ups of most churches reflect the sexism that we see in wider society; and historically the church has been part of what shaped and strengthened the patriarchy we now contend with. That structural sexism is evident even in some of the most liberal churches - women take a lesser role in leadership than their numbers and years would suggest they should (or perhaps it would be more correct to say men take a larger role, since most congregations are predominantly female).

But that is true of many institutions, and feminists still, for instance, get involved in academia or politics, despite the structural issues. You don't hear many women asking "can I study maths and be a feminist?". I don't see why religion is different. You don't have to reject education or politics because the institutions are patriarchal (though some women do), equally I don't think you have to reject Christianity because the church is sexist. You should speak up about sexism though work to ensure equality. For some women that will mean not engaging with current churches.

Whether Chritianity as a faith is compatible with feminism is a different matter. There is a lot of talk above about the marriage vows and how submission to a husband is not necessary, but submission to God is. Personally, I think this is at odds with feminism. It doesn't matter what it is you submit your will to - a philosophy that has you submitting is not a liberation philosophy. And the fact that men should submit too only makes us equally cowed, it is not the same as women being liberated. But this is as much about what it is to be human as what it is to be a feminist.

Roufous - I do not believe that your termination was sinful at all (mine was IMO).

I'm very sorry for your loss.

Rufous Christians were instrumental in the fight for safe abortions in the USA in the mid-20th century. The Clergy Consultation Service on Abortion arranged safe (though then illegal) abortions for women in the 60s and 70s. Although the Evangelical Right are the loudest "Christian" voice on the matter, it is not the only view. Even the Catholic church came to its current total opposition relatively recently. There are many Chritians who do not believe that abortion is a sin.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this.

I think you are right that I feel conflicted about it.

Laurie - the reasons for the termination were that the baby had downs syndrome and developmental problems. I didn't mention this in my earlier post, because I didn't want to detract from the fact that I am pro-choice anyway.

I wonder too Summer if I would be a hypocrite - for going along and pretending it didn't happen, and also would I in some way be endorsing the official C of E view that it is a 'moral evil'? May be I need to look at a different church? Are the Methodists/URC more flexible on this?

I'm a feminist, a Christian, and I study extremely misogynistic Christian theology and religious practice as part of my degree. It makes me pretty sure that most people who claim Christianity is intrinstically misogynistic are just seeking a lazy justification for misogyny.

There is no excuse for misogyny.

It really does not matter how many misogynistic twits want to say 'ooh, but it's in the Bible/it's what we've always done/it's probably innate/you're just being silly'. Just ignore them.

Rufous - I'm also pro-choice as a Christian and a feminist.

Please don't feel you have to answer this but consider the reasons for why you did it.

I had a termination and I don't regret it in any way. I do think I did something technically 'wrong' or sinful but since I'm sinful every day and grace exists to pay for me I'm ok with what I felt (at the time) I had to do.