Is it possible to be a good Christian at the same time as being a feminist?

I wish I knew more about quakers. They were also pro gay marriage long before lots of other denominations, weren't they?

You and I will have to agree to disagree, Lady- I think you are profoundly wrong on this point, but I don't seem to be able to express myself in a way your understand.

The bible says loads of stuff no-one takes any notice of (except those of Jewish faith perhaps) ... not eating prawns, not wearing clothes made of mixed fabrics, are two I've heard mention of.

So, funny really that this small verse in a letter from Paul, very much bound by its cultural context, still seems to have legs !

I think much of Christian faith and tradition is quite sexist. One thing that drew me towards the Quakers who at least aspire to equality

fair - I'm not sure I agree. I think if you were marooned, you'd still be Christian, and I think some brands of Christianity wouldn't place the emphasis on the Eucharist being something you have to receive regularly (in DH's religion you go maybe twice a year, for example - regular attendance is only a thing in the West after about 1215).

I know what you mean about it being a corporate religion and I totally agree, just not sure that it is as rigid and rule-bound as you'd suggest.

You don't go to church but you go for weddings, funerals and christenings?

You do go, surely.

I don't think an anthropologist studying our culture in 200 or 500 years time would interpret this as not participating in religious culture. It's just not really possible.

I can totally see why it's desirable for many people to extricate themselves from Christian culture, and I'm not saying that this culture is pervasive because I think that's necessarily a good thing - it's just the case. Making a distinction between that and something like the legal system is only making a point about different positions on a spectrum.

There are many reasons why I have never come close to believing in a god.

The fact that the church represents oppression of women is just one of them.

So, no, I don't think it is possible to be a feminist and a 'proper' christian (by this I mean fully believing, not just going to church because they always have/like the social aspect).

I don't go to church.

The law is an essential part of our society. It is misogynist, although it is better than it was. I am not endorsing the innate misogyny by accepting a parking ticket!

However, the women who go to church regularly-making up, in many places, the vast majority of congregations- allow the church hierarchy to carry on as it is.

I think what people who aren't Christians usually find utterly impossible to get is that you can't choose to not engage with the church and still be a Christian. It's not a case of you can be a Christian all by yourself by believing in xyz and following rules pqr. It's not a religion where you get a membership badge by fulfilling x number of commandments or whatever. It's a corporate (in the sense of belonging to one body), relational religion - you can't be a Christian except in community with other Christians, because sharing in the Eucharist is so utterly central to Christian identity.

If I were marooned on a desert island by myself, I could still pray and I could still say the creeds, and possibly obtain grace through some means. But that wouldn't make me a Christian, because without the Eucharist I am not part of the Body of Christ.

What's the difference?

And how are you not an active participant if you go to church?

As I said, there is a difference between being a spectator and being an active participant.

Ok, I think I see.

Do you feel you're giving misogyny in the law 'legitimacy' when you get a parking ticket?

Or do you imagine that when you go to someone's wedding, everyone knows you're secretly disdainful?

I mean, that's the issue, isn't it? You know how you feel inside. You know you don't want to legitimize misogynistic power structures. I know I don't. But we live in them. It's hard to know how to do that.

Fantastic thread

"I'm afraid I think that is much more like 'special pleading' - you're trying to make out religion is some kind of optional structure in society, when it quite obviously isn't. You may want it to be, and I get that it must be intensely annoying to feel this is a load of bollocks, but I don't see how you could simply pretend it isn't there."

I don't pretend it's not there. And of course I go to the occasional hatch, match, dispatch or Church Parade. And I am constrained by laws enacted in part by unelected Bishops (but that's another thread!) But being a spectator is very different from being an active member. Being an active member of something is, however much people deny it, endorsing it, giving it legitimacy. The hierarchy can say " we have X number of women coming to church every Sunday-we can't be that misogynist"

LRD makes a good point - we have an established church here, which means no-one can completely avoid it. There's an argument to be had about whether the church should be disestablished, but until it is, everyone in the UK lives in a parish and is entitled to be baptised, married and buried in the parish church. Lots of people still exercise those rights, so unless you have a very homogeneous circle of friends you're bound at least to go to a few church services in your life.

I don't feel as though I've got a huge amount of choice about engaging with the church in practice. I believe in God, and I have the kind of personality that is nourished by formal liturgy and church music. I can't very well start my own church, and in any case what I want already exists in high Anglicanism - why can I not claim that as mine because I'm a woman?

You also have to distinguish between what's happening in parishes and what's happening in the hierarchy. My own parish is inclusive and egalitarian: I feel properly at home in it, not there on sufferance, or as though the institution doesn't want me. All of us, male and female, do a lot of eye-rolling at some of the pronouncements from the centre.

curlew - not in the UK, is it?

I think to be honest, there are few places you would be able completely to disengage from the Church.

We've discussed this sort of thing in separatism threads - how far can anyone get away from society?

I'm afraid I think that is much more like 'special pleading' - you're trying to make out religion is some kind of optional structure in society, when it quite obviously isn't. You may want it to be, and I get that it must be intensely annoying to feel this is a load of bollocks, but I don't see how you could simply pretend it isn't there.

"You should have told the minister to fuck off!"

Well, probably not at someone else's wedding.......

You should have told the minister to fuck off!

That sort of thing made me give up religion. What place does it have in a liberal society where shock women are allowed to think for themselves!

Its impossible to be a feminist and follow the Christian faith. They just don't comply.

"It has helped me a lot, but I think you've all gone a bit in depth for me to be able to contribute much now, even though I thought I was quite knowledgeable about Christianity."

I am sad that you feel like that- and I don't really understand why. Your experience and opinions are obviously as valid as anyone else's. And your OP seemed to me to be very perceptive and clear sighted. A lot of what followed (sorry to dent the universal niceness of the thread) strikes me as obfuscation and special pleading. Yes, of course you can have whatever relationship you want with your own personal God, and perceive him in whatever way you like. But the minute you adhere to any organised Christian church, you are adhering to an organisation with is intrinsically misogynist and which has marginalised and oppressed women for centuries. I say Christian church, because those are the only ones that I feel remotely qualified to talk about, not because I think they are unique in this.
And where the lawyer analogy breaks down is in that we are all obliged to engage with the law in our daily lives. It is entirely up to each individual whether they engage with the Church.

What an interesting thread.

I would say that most mainstream religious have feminists and therefore women creating feminists movements within them.

From my own personal experience I can tell you that there is a sizeable Islamic/Muslim feminist movement (yes, really) and huge amount of scholarship and literature about this along with actual women's movements too.

In terms of institution s, Islam is a much less organised faith then people realise, we don't have popes, etc different countries with have religious academies with scholars and women can be scholars too (and far more of them used to be ).

Here is a short interview with Amina Wadud, who has done a lit of interesting work:www.resetdoc.org/story/00000022177

Hope this isn't a derail, I just wanted to add another perspective.

Summer I've been to Australia and to a 'tranny' bar. I have been to a lovely bakery in Kings Cross.

fear not feat!!

Treacle my dear how awful and terrible. All I can say is that they were teaching you what they believed about God. You can find out for yourself what God is like and how being part of God's kingdom feels. You are not limited to live your life as that six year old. It is really horrible that such thoughts were put in your head and maybe brought about fear. Perfect love drives out fear. God is love and does not want, I believe, for us to live in fear. God is also stronger than the devil. May you be set free from such fears and may you find your own way forward. Christ came to set us free not to bind us up. It was feat that led to people passing on such teaching. So sad and bad though it is you can move forward.