Male feminists and porn

Well said, gosh.

I think there are quite a few male "feminists" who like the parts of feminism which benefit them. So more liberal (for want of a better word) attitudes towards sex and sexuality are great, likewise women having better access to contraception and abortion, as all these things benefit men.

But better female representation in society, equitable childrearing, etc, don't seem to excite these male feminists as much.

That's the thing about power, those who have it are able tailor circumstances to suit their own desires.

I think there are a lot of men who're feminists, but you're right, there are also lots of men who need to step up.

I think, though, you have to remember that lots of women also don't immediately feel passionate about every area of feminism - people vary in what they're comfortable with and I don't think anyone should stop feeling involved.

The answer is simply that it's not helpful for anyone in any movement to claim they 'understand' something they don't, surely?

I agree with rosebud's point.

Well, Cisco, are you saying that there aren't any men who could agree with enough of feminism because there aren't any men who could agree not to watch porn? I hope that is not the case (and think that it is rather insulting to men to assume that it is). But, if it is, I don't think the answer is to give up on men or allow them to give up on feminism! As LRD said, we all make decisions not to do things we like because of the possible wider effects on others. I think men are quite capable of making that decision as well as women.

Having read through this thread again, I am asking myself 'Are there many men who actually are feminists?' - at least in the sense that the people on this board define it.

I would guess that there may be a few who qualify, but for the vast majority of men, they wouldn't agree with enough of feminism 101 to be seen as one. Would it be more helpful if most men stopped pretending that they understood the movement at all? (speaking anecdotally here)

Pornography (as well as prostitution) is surrounded by the issue of consent of the participants. We cannot know for sure who is coerced or who is willing.

Some people will assume that the unknown consent status of the participants must have been coercion, because this assumption does the least harm to the participants. It's erring on the side of caution. Such people are likely to not use pornography, are likely to care about the participants and campaign to end abuse of women (and men and children) in pornography. This group includes feminists.

Some people will assume that the unknown consent status of the participants must have been consent, because it will enable them to use pornography, without guilt or shame. They are not interested in doing the least harm. The only interest the porn user has in the participants is "did they provide enough pleasure for the user". I don't see how this group can include feminists.

Even the existence of willing participants in pornography is problematic for women as a group.

I would imagine the vast majority of people would enjoy watching nice sex. I mean, I think it's important to say that. Men who want to watch porn and who want to be feminists aren't in some special unique situation. They're in the same boat as everyone else.

Sex is very nice.

Porn is very crap.

If there's a magic answer that'd be lovely, but I think honestly there isn't, and I think it is kinda patronizing towards men to assume they are less capable of understanding that than women/more in 'need' of porn.

Mmm ... I think it's fair to deny porn. In rather the same way, I guess, that I'd love to let off those cool chinese lantern things but know they're a hazard, or I enjoy driving at 120 but don't. It's the risk to other people that bothers me.

I think written erotica is different. The risk there is, is it perpetuating shitty attitudes in an influential way (like 50 shades). But IMO it is so much easier to write erotica that's not a worry. That's just my personal view, though, I don't really know. If someone came up with a good argument against erotica I'd try to consider it as best I could.

"AmyFarrahFowlerCooper - maybe he is one of those men who 'loves women' "

Oh, God- yes, them.

Like "a man's woman" only worse.

PS I do also think even totally home-made, joy-of-sex style porn is feeding into the idea that 'men need porn' and 'women's bodies are for looking at'.

I know women get turned on visually just as men (I have noticed this what with being female). It's just that the dominant cultural paradigm isn't women being turned on visually and men being objects to be looked at.

I don't think we currently have non-misogynistic porn. I'm not sure whether films of people having sex is inherently misogynistic (I don't see why), but I think it's impossible for it not to be misogynistic to a greater or lesser extent in the society we live in.

To take an example, say I make a vanilla sex film with DH and pop it on an amateur website (don't worry, I won't! ). Now you could say this is harmless. Maybe if we're having lovely feministy sex where I get to enjoy it it even looks feministy, right?

The problem I have is, as soon as I do that, you get people thinking 'hey, this porn stuff is all fine! We just have to choose ethical porn like this lady made with her DH! (granted, the natural response would actually be 'eugh, I shall never look at nookie again', but ...).

Then they look for 'amateur' porn. And what they find will be a mixture - some will be what people put up themselves. A lot of it won't be, because amateur porn is a big seller, and it's run by the same people who do the normal, trafficked-women-being-raped/porn-stars-getting-anal-prolapses that you find everywhere else.

At this point it gets a little seedy, and, if you're me, you start thinking 'shite, what did I do?'

It's not that getting off on people having sex is somehow automatically evil, it's that the structures of society make it extremely difficult for anyone to extricate themselves from misogyny. And when the risk is the sort of thing that can happen to women who're involved in hardcore porn, or the sort of attitude hardcore porn fosters with regard to women's bodies, I don't see it being worth it.

Which is a pity, cos sex is very nice. But there we are.

You're welcome Cisco.

AmyFarrahFowlerCooper - maybe he is one of those men who 'loves women'

Maybe he thinks porn is empowerfulising and liberating for women and he just loves watching laydeez get pornified getting empowered and fucked liberated!

(Except he probably refers to them as 'girls')

Okay, thanks for your answer, Beach.

Is it male on male porn your interested in then yes that could be ok

What Beach said.

There are some feminist deal breakers- porn is one.

What Beach said 100%

Women watching porn.......I have often wondered whether some of it is to do with the fact that women are socialised to be submissive. So much of our sexuality would be influenced by societal norms, upbringing, early experiences & expectations. Porn that is violent, disturbing and depicts women as suffering,(that would be most) those women are acting in the way circumscribed to them, the women viewer is invited to submit herself to internalising that mode of behaviour, to become submissive and embrace suffering. Its almost as though women are made to suffer, so that in consuming the messages that make us feel the most uncomfortable, we are at that point suffering as well. But because this is deemed the "natural state" of womenhood we should enjoy it and internalise those messages and modes of behaviour. I now get why some feminists have been scathing about BDSM and why housewives martyr themselves in pursuit of perfect cakes and white washing.

And no, men who watch porn are not feminist, well not one I would recognise.

I don't mind following it up Cisco but don't want to take the thread off topic.

I also don't want to turn a discussion which is focusing on male behaviour to one that focuses on female behaviour. In feminist discussions this can often happen and it is often done to camouflage or justify male behaviour (I'm not saying that is what is being done here). It is the 'women do it too' argument stopper.

Briefly, for me, women consuming porn is internalized sexism and men watching porn is just plain sexism (misogyny actually).

I don't have a problem understanding of the points of view expressed on here, other than your last one, Beach. That standpoint confuses me. But if you don't want to follow it up here, that's cool too.

And what scallops said about privilege.

The porn industry is extremely misogynistic. Porn is hate speech against women. If you think of it in political analysis terms, porn is propaganda for male supremacist society.

I would be very at a man who consumes porn and claims to be a feminist.

Porn is very pervasive (especially since the development of the internet) so there are lots of people who consume it who are no doubt nice people who wish women well and consider themselves to be supportive of feminism. And we are not encouraged to politically analyse porn - we are encouraged to unthinkingly consume it.

Personally I think it is deluded to think one can consume porn and not internalize its misogynistic and racist messages, stereotypical portrayal of women as male defined 'types', hypermasculinity and violence. Especially if one is reinforcing those messages by jacking off to them.

(I also think that female consumption of porn is a different phenomenon to that of male consumption but that is probably best discussed on a separate thread.)

What scallops said.