Male feminists and porn

I am guessing as much as you are as to the OP's true intent, so I may be wrong. But how can we discuss a male feminist watching porn without discussing the nature of porn itself? If you want one without the other, the OP might has well have asked for one word answers - 'yes' or 'no'.

If that is what you wanted, OP, yes (it is possible) to you first question, and depends (on which strand of feminism you are referring to) to your second. I don't think it leads to much of a discussion though.

Ah, I read her differently.

If this thread is meant to be discussing the nature of porn, rather than whether a man can be a feminist and watch porn, fair enough.

I don't really see why, if the OP means what the OP says she means (as opposed to your interpretation), we need to discuss the material, TBH.

The OP has made reference to a man watching porn. I assumed that this could lead to discussion about the nature of the material that he watches. After all, we don't know the individual concerned, and the OP has imparted little information about him, so we have to discuss the material rather than the individual. I was discussing the nature of porn, rather than a man I have no knowledge of.

We seem to be moving away from the question of male feminists and porn, and more into 'feminists should really be more ok with accepting porn is feminist'. This feels a bit like a separate debate to me?

Apologies OP if it is exactly what you wanted, I'm just struggling to follow the connection to your OP, and I am normally the world's most useless thread-derailing rambler.

Why are we getting to accusatory suggestions that maybe feminists 'just don't like the idea of men getting off on watching sex'? We're back to the feminists again, not the men, aren't we.

'Feminist pornography is porn that is generated in a fair manner, signifying that performers are paid a reasonable salary and most importantly treated with care and esteem; their approval, security, and well-being are vital, and what they bring to the production is appreciated. ' - from that link.

So, is this like the fair-trade label? People paid a fair wage, treated with respect, not exploited etc etc.

Because if porn could be produced ethically (please note I said could, not is), then feminists could not have a problem with it, right? Unless they just don't like the idea of men getting off on watching sex full stop.

And I understand the argument about a bigger picture - you could have 1 per cent ethical porn and 99 per cent of uncertain origin, or some such split. But, we have non-sex industries that have splits between fair-trade and non fair trade produce, don't we? Our clothes, our food, our coffee. Feminism doesn't want us to stop buying those things, and we can all live without coffee.

And another thing.

So called "feminist pornography" is just a slick version of "women do it too" . Just more cunning because it is ratched up to the level of feminists do it too.

libertarianj what is being described in your link is not "feminist pornography" though is it?

It is not representative of many feminists' values and it does not reflect the the political analysis and critical thinking which make up the foundations of feminism as a grass roots political movement.

What is being described is "third waver pornography" or "sex positiver pornography".

I myself would call it "backlash pornography".

From your link;

Feminist Pornography refers to a genre of film developed by and/or for women. It was created for the purposes of encouraging women and their self-beliefs of freedom through sexuality equality and pleasure.

Do you want to tell me how exactly women are supposed to escape our sex based oppression by these means? The sex class is not going to find liberation from male supremacy through the means of fucking on film. Or watching people fuck on film.

Also from your link;

The overall aim of feminist porn is to empower the performers who produce it and the people who view it.

You what? pardon? 'cuse me? What does that even mean ? The third wave tendency to chuck the word 'empower' in, and think that doing so transforms an act of compliance into an act of revolution, is internalized sexism at work. That's all.

There seems to be a long running confusion in third wave feminism that being sexually liberated is the same as being liberated from sex based oppression. (There also seems to be an overwhelming lack of awareness of the phenomenon of socialization...)

Didn't the link work for you, Chaos? I don't understand your comment. I can read it.

So, that's a no then, thanks.

Feminist porn?

Porn where all parties are respectful of one another? Porn where the female protagonist feels able to voice her opinion that whatever is happening is causing her pain/discomfort/she just doesn't like it, knowing that she will be heard, her feelings validated, cared about and a new scene thought out?

That kind of feminist porn?

Is there such a badger?

yeah there is, it's not something i have just made up, i promise:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_pornography

I'm not sure that men calling themselves feminists and not actually knowing much about it are more common than the equivalent among women. But it's probably true that we smile at the idea of women who have some aspirations to a feminist outlook, but who have yet to learn all the details, and we probably wouldn't trust men in that position: maybe we'd never trust them ever.

One thing I bet you don't hear men say very often:
"I'm not a feminist, but..."

Cisco, I think you are right that a lot of men claiming to be feminists probably don't really know much about the movement or its tenets and foundations.

That doesn't follow, IMO.

Plenty of men are capable of getting what feminism is about, even if they read a board like this that isn't primarily designed to help them learn. They might read other sites, or they might know about it from their own lives. This board is dominated by female posters who're sort of 'talking amongst themselves', so naturally it isn't the ideal place to start. It doesn't mean that, in general, men who claim to be feminists or feminist friendly never understand what they're talking about.

I am not saying that they should, or that they have to. I am saying that they don't, and therefore a bloke claiming to be a feminist (as in the OP) is unlikely to understand what that statement means.

I don't imagine that's the primary idea, mind, that they should resonate with men.

I expect if it were the 'FWR and Male Outreach' or 'FWR and How To Bag Your Prince' section it might be a bit different.

Re Rosa's question - no, I was not just talking about porn. I don't think the central concepts of feminism, as expressed on this board, resonate with men. Porn is one of those concepts, but not the only one.

Oh great, a link to an article about a study by the Adult Industry Medical Healthcare Foundation. The AIM's main line of work is to test people in porn for STDs - I wonder if they included stats on sexual health in their 'Being in Porn is Healthy for Women' study

Can you link to the actual study rather than a journo piece?

Feminist porn = oxymoron

And where the women all have realistic bodies- no bleached anuses.

Feminist porn?

Porn where all parties are respectful of one another? Porn where the female protagonist feels able to voice her opinion that whatever is happening is causing her pain/discomfort/she just doesn't like it, knowing that she will be heard, her feelings validated, cared about and a new scene thought out?

That kind of feminist porn?

Is there such a badger?

"Going back to the OP's friend in question, how do you know he doesn't watch feminist porn?"

Tell me about this feminist porn.

A rough guess.

all this talk of actor consent and welfare, does it really ring true?, or is it yet another one of those convenient assumptions used by the anti porn lobby? The latest studies would say otherwise:

www.independent.co.uk/news/science/porn-stars-and-the-naked-truth-8348388.html

Also why would actors need to be coerced? Do you not think people would be aware of what the job would entail before they turned up to the audition? Are you telling me they wouldn't have checked out the web site or details of the directors etc beforehand?

Going back to the OP's friend in question, how do you know he doesn't watch feminist porn?

What vesuvia said

(Hi vesuvia, nice to see you )