Male feminists and porn

If there is a man who believes, in an innocent sort of a way, that women are equal and treats individual women as equals in his eyes (I think that there are many men like this) then I think that such a man can watch porn and find that doing so doesn't conflict with his ideas that women are equal. Because he doesn't know of, isn't interested in or doesn't understand the political analysis that underpins feminism.

Clearly this hypothetical man is blind to his privilege that enables him to reconcile a belief in women's humanity with an enjoyment of porn.

With regards to what you said here Buffy, yes he is blind to his privilege but he is also guilty of 'othering' women.

And, for a lot of men, there will be double othering going on. The reconciling can only happen within a cultural framework of othering women as the sex class, and with certain women forming the (doubly othered) subgroup of the porn sex class. We see exactly this sort of attitude with prostitution (which is not surprising given that as I said earlier, porn is simply filmed prostitution).

If you asked the average male porn consumer if they would be happy with the idea of their wife/girlfriend/mother/sister/etc being in porn, they would say no. If you asked them how they would feel about themselves being treated like women are treated in porn they probably wouldn't even have a proper understanding of what they were being asked.

It is just plain old fashioned woman as other + madonna/whore complex. Which is clearly illustrated in the etymology of the word pornography.

That's a good analogy.

Or drugs - you can be anti drugs and still accept you'd get high if you took a line of coke.

Ahhh ... you mean we're frigid

No, I know you weren't!

I was rambling a bit (as I do). I just meant, I find it so odd that many people do seem to imagine that anyone who doesn't think porn is ethical, must actually be responding sexually in a different way from the norm.

In some imaginary, post-revolution world I can believe we'd have 'ethical porn', but I don't see the sense in risking it in the world we have.

Good lord, I wasn't suggesting my brain is special Yes, it's usual to find porn sexually stimulating.

It's less usual to examine the nature and provenance of the porn, making a considered choice on whether to seek it out for sexual stimulation. I'm sure everybody on this thread would like everyone to do so. I'm theoretically in favour of ethical porn for this reason: people find it easier to select a no-harm option than to deny themselves completely - but am a bit depressed by the lack of availability, quality and verifiability.

Yes, it was a bit mad, garlic.

I would have thought most people find porn sexually stimulating, though? I mean, why on earth wouldn't we?

To extend the analogy further - I don't have to believe diamonds aren't sparkly just because I'm worried about blood diamonds. I can accept they are sparkly and gorgeous (well, actually I think they're a bit meh, but you know ...), and also think I shouldn't buy them.

lib - sorry, but you do realize that if you go in with a sledgehammer, declaring that all anti-porn feminists are wrong, you will be met with the usual responses and quickly sidelined as an extremist? However, if you went in with any kind of rational response instead, people might actually listen to you, and you might get people thinking a bit.

I do hope that advice helps and doesn't come across as massively patronizing, or as if I've not stopped to read threads on this before. That would be embarrassing!

So we have to pretend that we think porn is all right really, so that we don't upset the men?

You're somehow equating porn with car ownership? For some people car ownership is an essential. For many others life would be very difficult without one.

nah, that wasn't my point. I wasn't saying which one is more essential. I was talking about how they are tackled.
i.e If you go in with a sledgehammer, declaring all porn should be banned then you will be met with the usual responses and quickly sidelined as an extremist. However if you went in with the promoting ethical porn approach, then people may actually listen and it may get people thinking a bit.

Blimey, LRD, that's bonkers! All the same, it's just a bureaucratic hoop, innit. Wear a £10 engagement ring when you go to the Immigration, or borrow one.

I think the OP was too cut'n'dried. I'm "interested" in porn and can find it sexually stimulating even if it's the 'wrong' sort. Being a feminist, I don't watch it or seek it out, but the inner recesses of my brain are interested in sex, not politics. My forebrain is interested in porn as an aspect of gender politics.

But a person who specifically uses porn for sexual gratification is not a feminist, no. Or, perhaps more precisely, is a 'pale pink' feminist.

Some people - disturbingly - wouldn't see that argument either. I was quite seriously informed by a total idiot that if you were engaged without a diamond ring, and the Home Office investigated the marriage (which was quite possible since DH is from one of those places where sham marriages aren't unheard of), then they wouldn't believe it was real.

Yes, seriously.

It is amazing how much effort is put into making us believe that all these money-spinners are essentials (and yes, porn is a huge money spinner).

You're somehow equating porn with car ownership? For some people car ownership is an essential. For many others life would be very difficult without one.

Nobody actually needs porn. I think my diamond analogy down thread is a better one. There might be "ethical" diamonds, but since you can't tell by looking, I'll not be buying one. No hardship- it's a luxury I can well do without. Porn is the same.

^...and so to the majority, feminists who speak of the inherent misogyny and harm inherent in all porn are similar to the people who speak against car ownership. They seem a bit bonkers?

Feminist porn is the Toyota Prius of porn! ^

yeah i see what you mean, and i will just add that getting people to ditch their cars would be nigh on impossible and would restrict their freedom of choice, whereas getting people to use greener vehicles is a lot more feasible prospect and is surely the sensible way forward?

Re your hypothetical man - I said the same thing on page 2. Most men agree with equality for women in the eyes of the law. The basic tenets of feminism are a different thing entirely. The patriarchy, hatred of women, institutional sexism - most men will find these concepts a bit of a stretch, if they are aware of them at all. And most men will find vanilla porn acceptable because it's accessible, free and for the vast majority, appears to have willing participants.

Convenient, cheap and apparently without a victim - like so much in our society.

Very true.
Seen too among ourselves not men only.

Yes, I think that's absolutely true. I think the vast majority of sexism/misogyny is like that - people don't think 'ah, I have conceived an enormous hatred of women, now I will put it into practice'.

Interesting how the figure of Jeremy Clarkson springs to mind in both the feminist and the prius example ...

I'm not bored with the subject, though. I'm bored with digressions and with people who can't be bothered to read the thread before complaining that no-one has yet addressed their point, when it has in fact been addressed several times.

Can men use porn and still be seen as feminists?

We've now debated pretty thoroughly whether or not such a thing as 'feminist porn' exists, and I think we've established that some of us believe this is a question whose answer lies in analysing the structure of society and the nature of gender relations, while others thing a quick wank google would be better.

It's fun and all, but what's wrong with a little light relief, lemonade and lemon cake, before we get back to the subject?

if you are not why not just add to it?

You can always tell when an interesting and potentially educational discussion about a serious topic has gone to ratshit when someone has to start with the sarcasm. If you are bored of the subject, why not just stay out?

I posted a delicious lemonade recipe yesterday.....

I could fancy some lemon drizzle cake.

LRDY

Yes, why are we talking about the misogyny in porn or focusing on the men who consume porn when we could be analysing the various usages of inverted commas...?!

(I used ?! to express questioning surprise - HTH)