Male feminists and porn

There are lots of sites though, the one you mention is only one.

It's from my own experience of looking at Internet porn and from talking to make friends and ex partners about it.
The general gist is that the soft core solo stuff doesn't work for people who have viewed a lot of porn.

StickEmUp ^My DH doesn't like porn but I don't think it's anything to do with the cast, he's more turned off at the idea of watching other people having sex. He thinks it's private.

And a bit weird about looking at another man's penis, to be frank.

Interested to hear what others think of that.^

So what's his views on porn featuring only women or porn where people aren't having sex and doing solo stuff? I reckon his view is a common one with regards to not wanting to see other blokes and hence why softcore stuff is very popular as i pointed out above.

Nah that's not mainstream, that's what the anti porn brigade want people to believe everyone is looking at.
Check out the most popular sites on Alexa:

www.alexa.com/topsites/category/Top/Adult,

yeah there are a couple of free video hosting sites at 1 and 2 but the majority are softcore sites, mostly web cams, also looking at freeones at number 8 for example, their most viewed item with 15 million views is 'Nikki Simms' or 'Next door Nikki' - definitely softcore stuff.

Hope you don't mind me adding my opinion.
I have watched some porn and I didn't find it sexually stimulating or interesting for the most part. It was scary and made me feel sick. Most of it was women being treated roughly, choked and hurt. Abusive language is normal.
That's mainstream porn. If you go to any of the big free porn websites which have a selection of free clips from all over the Internet then this rough and horrible stuff is average fayre.

I think it's perfectly possible to like porn and not be a misogynist. Getting turned on by sexual display is not remotely evil in itself. Making the effort to seek out what might be called 'fairtrade' porn is always an option. Fairtrade porn does exist, it just needs more effort to get hold of it, because the main distributing bodies are not so keen on it.

Well, not much room for manoeuvre there; if you are a lefty and you like porn you are a misogynist, and if you don't like porn you are.....erm, a misogynist.

I am a lefty. I believe in redistribution of wealth, a welfare state and the right to healthcare and education that is free at point of delivery. I must hate women.

I don't think you need to wait long before you find the men SGB describes showing their true colours.

Most lefty-boys are either totally cool with porn - what's the problem, you're nearly equal now, they're sex workers who consented and all they need is to join a union - or they're anti it because they regard the women who participate in it as less human than themselves, whores not good socialist women.

Their true colours usually show quite early on in any discussion of this topic.

a man or woman can believe in equality between the sexes, but still really enjoy looking at sexual images of people who have consented to having their images shared.

So hang on if a man entertains anti-pornography rhetoric he's mysoginistic, so we should leave the subject unexamined for fear of being labeled mysoginistic? How then can we move the discussion forward if such is the case?

For what it's worth I do get where you are coming from. Men with attitudes such as you describe without a doubt exist, but I think in a frank and honest discussion it pays to give the benefit of the doubt to those engaged in that debate until such time as their true colours are shown.

Some of the creepiest men I have ever met have been anti-porn 'male feminists'. IMO unsolicited anti-porn ranting from a man is a fairly big red flag for misogyny: men like this are very keen on slutshaming and blaming the female performers for what they perceive as the wrongness of pornography.

As to the difference between 'porn' and 'erotica' it's either wholly subjective or it's discussed as the difference between words and pictures. And I could derail the thread for hours about erotica and 50 Shades and the problems faced by any woman wanting to make sexually explicit entertainment media aimed at women. and then go on and on about My Book, of course

I think you can still be a feminist and have an interest in pornograpy. Pornography by definition is simply watching two people engage in explicit sexual behaviour. It is natural to be interested in these things no matter your gender or age etc.

There is a big market for, and a lot of material containing normal couples having very normal sex. This i don't see an issue with. It's normal sex wit a camera in the room. It is an additional interest of theirs that is sharing their material and viewing others.

I think it gets more complicated when you look at what the actual porn industry is and it's treatment of women, and in some i've seen gay males.

I thought that was an interesting perambulation Dervel, don't apologise for rambling off a bit, it's in a good cause.

What struck me about that teenage boy stuff was the thing that men are taught which can be summed up as "bro's before ho's".

It's what patriarchy has always imposed on men - the concept that the most important bonding they can do, is not with women or with their children, but with other men.

When they step outside that rule, they threaten patriarchy. So they have to be slapped down. Jeering at a boy (or man) who talks about a girl (or woman) like she's a human being just like other boys (or men) serves the same function as porn - it reminds boys and men how they should be performing masculinity. The jeering reminds them of the punishments for not doing so (loss of social status, ostracisation, expulsion from the group) while porn rewards them for doing so (orgasm).

I have a particular chap in mind to talk to about this garlicagain. He is always remarkably insightful and wise. I am not sure I'm particularly against promiscuity in and of itself, as long as people are honest and safe about it. I can't abide all the smoke, mirrors and deception that seem to surround a lot of promiscuous people.

For what it's worth I think porn stands to damage men as well as women. Although I appreciate that is not the purpose of this thread, but I do believe only healthy, respectful cross-gender lines debate will help us make thing better.

I don't think I "get" feminism myself quite yet, and perhaps I never will. However there are a great many impossible things that are still nevertheless very worthwhile in at least making the attempt.

I'm not sure if this is off topic, but perhaps it gives a hint to where human sexuality has gone off-piste, and by extension where pornography goes wrong: I am interested in switching career to psychology and psychoanalysis in particular, and as such you have to go through therapy yourself, and my therapist in a session where we were discussing sexuality pointed out something that really floored me. A phrase I always thought was rather beautiful "to make love to someone" I used in context of my relationship, and he challanged me why I said make love to as opposed to make love with?

I did a lot of soul searching, and I could only come to the rather painful conclusion that on some unconscious level I did (and do) objectify women, although if you'd have asked me beforehand I would have sworn blind I did no such thing. This is where I think the vast majority of men currently sit. I did some mental backtracking and identified there was a point before what I suppose the worst of what I suppose you'd call "patriarchal conditioning" set in. At a sleepover when I was around 14-15 talk turned to a particularly beautiful older girl at my school, things got to a rather cringeworthy point where we all went round and talked about the things we would like to do to her, and I got derided when I said I'd just like to go out for a bite to eat to get to know her better (I was often soundly bullied for saying completely left field things that went agains the pack). I'd very much like to get back to that kid, looking back on him I quite like him.

Where this all gets to porn, is I am old enough to have thankfully had a childhood and adolesence free from the internet, but despite that I can still clearly identify parts of my own psyche where I have work to do. I read things like FHM and Loaded in my twenties, and I have picked up bad habits, but thankfully not to the point that it has impeded my ability to enjoy deep relationships or even strong enduring friendships with women. Yet the problem as I see it with things like internet porn, and to a lesser extent the things that affected me is that all of those things are passive experiences, where people fulfill a biological urge but there is no imagination attached to it, which I think is the foundation of any healthy sexuality. I don't think an attack on porn is an unreasonable thing to do at all, but I think the problem we're really talking about was around long before it, so it's only real efficacy at this point is damage control, but there is still more to be done.

I'm really really sorry for that wall of text, and prattling on about myself. However I couldn't really get to the meat of where I'm coming from without delving into some quite personal to me thought processes. I also don't really consider myself an expert on female sexuality, so I deliberately avoided tackling that side of the fence although that is of course just as important. Also for the parts that were off topic.

Interesting podcast on feminist porn here, of course the view is different to a lot of people who post here.

I'll take a moment to snigger at the irony of the pro-porn lobby complaining about people who 'like moaning'. grin

loving your comeback there. Although i reckon most people watch with the sound turned down

Arf at some of the posts on here.

To answer question, yes I think men who believe they are feminists can be interested in porn.

But then, I think men who believe they are feminists, or in sympathy with feminist aims, can also be domestic abusers or even rapists.

Feminism can mean anything men want it to mean.

You didn't ask. Nor did the OP.

But feel free to start another thread.

I'll take a moment to snigger at the irony of the pro-porn lobby complaining about people who 'like moaning'.

yeah you have explained why you believe 'porn is bad end of'. You haven't said how you would apply that to real life or how you would change peoples attitudes. I take it you want to change the status quo? or maybe you just like moaning?

You think your attitude didn't come across as a blunt sledgehammer? Whoops!

And no, if you read my posts, I haven't said 'no, porn is bad, end of'. I've actually explained my views.

If you struggle to understand them, denying they exist is probably not the way forward. In the real world, you need to listen as well as to spout your preconceived ideas.

lib - sorry, but you do realize that if you go in with a sledgehammer, declaring that all anti-porn feminists are wrong, you will be met with the usual responses and quickly sidelined as an extremist? However, if you went in with any kind of rational response instead, people might actually listen to you, and you might get people thinking a bit.

I haven't gone in with a sledgehammer though, unlike you i have tried to find some middle ground and hence my discussion of things such as feminist porn. All you have done is say 'no porn is bad end of' This totalitarian attitude may get you a few pats on the back over here but in real life it will get you nowhere.

Hmmm, you may be walking on quicksand there, Dervel. One of the less well-advertised truths of male homosexuality is that the vast majority of gay men are promiscuous, even when in long-term committed relationships, and to degrees that would be considered reckless by most straight women and men. I can confidently generalise about that - and, less confidently, report that gay men of my acquaintance seem to objectify both women and gay men.

Not trying to put you off, btw - it will be interesting to hear what you learn :)

I think your headed in the right direction beach. It is these double standards, and outmoded thought processes that need tackling, but not just in regards to porn, but in all aspects of men's attitudes towards sex. Although as others have pointed out women may have things they need to look to also. I am just more familiar with men's thought processes on the subject.

I am inclined to canvass my gay mates on the subject as obviously there is no second gender to marginalise, and perhaps the homosexual males attitude towards sex may hold some keys that could be applied to us straight ones.