Dustin Hoffman on being beautiful enough

I actually find it quite annoying that people think he's great for snivelling because - let's face it - he couldn't be made to look beautiful and then realised, with ZERO consequences for him, that he might have been a bit of a cock.

I would feel quite different if he had actually talked about the problem of women's appearance vs men's achievements (or extended it in any way beyond 'I thought I made an interesting woman but realised nobody would have talked to me' but he was not bright enough to do so!

Well Elephants, then he's a bit stupid. I understood what he was saying, but really hated the way he a) called it brainwashing when it was in fact him in particular being shallow; and b) cried and yet - I noticed - didn't actually accept any guilt or responsibility through the tears, no actual words like 'I behaved badly' or 'I was to blame for being a jerk'. Just snivels.

What he alludes to - and does little more than allude to and then sniff a bit - is insidious, and has undoubtedly damaged people. I just didn't see him articulating it with any insight or real contrition!

(I am well 'ard, obviously.)

God I love Dustin Hoffman so much.

Vellimetry, I thought he was feeling guilty (rather than sympathetic) because he'd been filtering women FIRST on looks, before even bothering to think about what they had to offer in terms of personality. And I don't think he was generalising out to all men, just noting his own assumption that women had to be hot to be considered good for anything at all.

And maybe he meant that if they weren't dateable-hot, he wasn't that interested in them even for things that weren't date related, like for work or conversation purposes (being married after all).

For instance, how about Marion Bartoli this week and all the "she's not fit enough to win Wimbledon"? As if your facial features or colouring have any bearing at all on your tennis skills.

This is a coincidence, or maybe it's not, but I can recall years ago reading in some book on gender issues that Dustin Hoffman was being interviewed by a journalist and some distance away, there was a group of adoring female fans behind a barrier. And he broke off the interview and went over to them and shouted "Where were you when I needed you?" So he's had some experience thinking about what makes women versus men attractive.

Our tradition is that men earn their attractiveness by actions, and women generate theirs by their appearance. One thing I definitely don't think is a coincidence is that we demand something close to a uniform appearance for men, in terms of grooming and clothing (unless they're rock stars!) But for women there are endless variations that go in and out of fashion combined with individual presentation, to achieve the aim of "beauty". Though of course everyone knows an older woman is forbidden to do much in that line--it would never do to be "mutton trying to dress as lamb".

Even if all that's true though, I don't think there's zero worth given to people's qualities of intelligence (if used without arrogance) or integrity or just plain being fun to be with. Those things do count in whether we find people attractive.

So anyway, maybe Dustin Hoffman has put some thought into this, and allowing for the fact that he's rich and famous, he's at least being a male who's willing to articulate some of it. At least that's better than going along with it all one's life and saying nothing.

I was unmoved by this, and not sure what was meant to move me.

He was sad that he wouldn't make a beautiful women. OK. A bit of humility never goes amiss.

He was sad that women who are not beautiful get ignored. But by whom? I'm not beautiful and I don't feel ignored by the people I want to notice me: the people who may judge me on looks interest me not at all. I felt that he felt sorry for most women because men like him ignore them. Patronising git (to men as well, but mainly to women).

And as someone else said, he actually took no responsibility for his behaviour before his Damascene conversion to...what? To not being shallow? Could he not have worked out before Tootsie that most women are pretty all right despite not looking like the stereotype he happens to see in his tiny, tiny corner of the world? And...why has he never mentioned this publicly before? Tootsie was decades ago. He could have made his point a hundred times over, if he really meant it.

I think he's a patronising, shallow, stupid person who happens to have got a bit teary because he knows it will play well on camera.

I also think it's interesting that you keep talking about what 'attractive' women do, Kym. I happily speak to unattractive men but as I am myself not very attractive, does that not count? I think it speaks volumes that you are categorising the women involved on appearance even when claiming that men have sexism as bad as women.

Kim - your qualifier, 'unless they have some kind of status' is very telling. Men can gain status in many ways, political, financial, intellectual, but women are judged on attractiveness first and foremost. If we are lacking in that respect, noone is interested.

YY to this.

There are many unattractive men with status but men are allowed to have status through brains, talent etc. Actually DH is not classically handsome - he's short as well. And he doesn't usually play alpha man roles - I'm sure he's aware he's not, say, Robert Redford.

But it has been fine for him - he has status because he is talented and famous and wealthy and powerful for many reasons. Ask Mary Beard if she has been accorded the status that's been accorded to an equivalent male academic...

I meant I don't think that's right. I meant that women do chat to unattractive men all the time if they are normal and friendly.

Kim47 I think that's right. Women like a man who is confident and interesting, and if an ugly man is comfortable in his own skin and is good company he will have far, far less trouble engaging the opposite sex in conversation than an ugly woman would have.

You only have to look at the reality that men are generally proud to have a much, much younger girlfriend, whereas generally, women would feel a little judged, a little awkward. I think this proves that women want people to value the relationship, its veracity if you like, whereas men want people to look at them and think 'he's banging that'.

Obviously not all men not quite but it shows how the sexes think. Women on tv must be beautiful and slim and young. men on tv, well, look at John Sargeant. And I've nothing against him, but he makes the point.

Kim - your qualifier, 'unless they have some kind of status' is very telling. Men can gain status in many ways, political, financial, intellectual, but women are judged on attractiveness first and foremost. If we are lacking in that respect, noone is interested.

I have mixed feeling about this:

On the one hand, DH has had his eyes opened and he has changed as a person and how he treats others. Warm fuzzies, claps, all very lovely. I hope it's widely circulated and watched by men and women everywhere and it has an impact.

On the other hand DH is clearly an intelligent person and quite nice chap. Yet it took him the extreme of getting the role, developing the physical character, acting in full drag etc etc to see what he was doing and how he was treating people. If it takes all that for DH to 'see the light' what chance does Joe Normal have? That part of it I felt was intensely depressing.