Dustin Hoffman on being beautiful enough

It is always worthwhile to see things from more perspectives than just your own, and I'm with Socrates in an unexamined life is not worth living.

Dervel, when I have those sorts of conversations with my husband, I have to do a lot of explaining sometimes to get over to him what it's like to be a woman. It isn't obvious to him that little things, like whether someone assumes you're interested in keeping the house clean or love lil babies and such, to bigger things like employment/live choices and sexual behaviour (like being discussed here, and worse), add up to what can only be described of as oppressive sexism. I don't think he feels too guilty though about past behaviour - that's just him. But it has (and does continue) changed how he sees/analyses things now. It's interesting to watch. It's also an interesting experiment, to step into the shoes of the other sex.

' Unattractive men feel an anger toward ordinary women that unatractive women do not feel towards ordinary men.'

Unless you have been both genders, or have scientific proof, then that is just supposition. Also, does it refer to all unattractive men? Just the real mingers, or those who score less that 5 out of 10 on the Brad scale? Can you tell by looking at a man what his level of anger is? If one woman rates me as a 7/10, and another one as 4/10, who's projected level of anger do I feel?

Quangle yes, exactly, how could a woman not know this. It's made clear to her every day since birth. I agree. Unattractive men feel an anger toward ordinary women that unatractive women do not feel towards ordinary men.

Stiffybling, I agree with what you say, it's not the same. Women are more aware of where they fall on the looks food chain. Sorry if that sounds really cynical but I believe it.

Are you my friend!? on her fortieth, I almost got upset because we were discussing feminism and she said there was no need for it. "women are equal now". This from a friend from a wealthy family whose parents stroked her paw all through university and then she met and married a man with a similar background. They both work and earn big salaries because childcare is a relatively minor expense for them. I should have asked if her clearner or her childminder also thought that women were equal now,but I stopped myself thank god. It was her birthday, and I do love her really, but her privilege has made her blind to some of the more depressing parts of life as an uneducated woman with no support

Ok I could well get flamed for this but for example: I remember a few years ago I was having discussions with a female friend about feminism, and whilst I was arguing that whilst sexist men undoubtedly exist surely things were not all that bad. These discussions got quite heated and she was raising examples from her personal life, particularly her career (which is of a technical scientific bent), but me in my privilege just simply couldn't see it.

I was aware these arguments were deeply frustrating for her and rather than actually stopping to think why (and possibly delve into the subject to a greater depth) carried on regardless. Having since seen the light so to speak. I have apologised to her, admitted I was wrong and she was right, but I cannot help but look back at those debates and cringe now at my own ignorance.

Dervel, why should you feel shame? You are born into a society with all it's built-in values and rules. You come to a realisation that it could be better. Where is the shame in that?

@LeBFG I like your post a great deal. I have come to feminism comparatively late, mainly through the lens of improving global conditions. Once I saw the data on ensuring girls are educated in developing nations, it became a no brainer to support it.

From then taking a look at my own society it became abundantly clear a lot more should be done, which to my shame I had not been aware of. I think perhaps the quite understandable reaction from feminists to men who either get it, are trying to or who are just starting down that road is quite rightly "what do you want a bloody medal?". As if the concept of one man now he suddenly gets it will now make all the difference.

When we make society better we have to do it together. Which is why if DH's comments make some people think that is a good thing, not that he or any bloke who tries deserve anything for simply being better human beings, but I do believe it should perhaps allow the benefit of the doubt. I don't know perhaps he's just a vacuous attention whore (he is an actor!) who arrived at some rudimentary revelation, but fundamentally wants to hear himself speak, but frankly I don't know him well enough outside of his acting to be able to judge.

One final note, as a bloke it is extremely disconcerting to think how my own deep seated modes of thinking may be mysoginistic and oppressive, and one area I envy female feminists is that with every realisation you make comes a greater sense of liberation. Whereas for men this can come with an overwhelming sense of guilt. Perhaps fully rightly but it does make it a rather different journey although without question a worthwhile one for its own sake.

I think there is a deep misogyny in the unattractive men being upset that they get overlooked by attractive women that goes beyond relative levels of attractiveness. It's fundamentally a horror that unattractive and "low status" men feel when they realise they are not even desirable to the lowest status creature on earth - an ordinary woman. What could be worse than being an ordinary woman? And if an ordinary woman doesn't find you attractive when you are actually a MAN then something has gone horribly wrong. I think that's where the anger comes from.

The equivalent woman doesn't get angry because she already knows where she is in the pecking order because society has made it clear every day since birth.

Women are apparently 'brainwashed' by the patriarchy every day. DH uses the same terminology, and within that idea, I think it was a just word choice. I think, because we are almost always women on here, we assume that men know exactly what feminists do and think. If you're a man, benefiting from society as a man can, socialised and working within the norms for the society, I find it less than obvious that men should just 'know' about feminism and the important messages discussed at length on this board.

Seeing things from other people's perspective isn't very easy - I remember a good looking, really nice bloke, quite charming and a friend who was not an alpha male. This quiet friend one day confided how he disliked the charmer intensely because of how he treated other men and how insincere he was with women. I suddenly saw the charmer through my friend's eyes - it was a moment of role-reversal and quite a shock to me at the time. SO I can definately empathise with DH's moment of self-discovery.

From some of the responses on here, I get the idea that feminism could do more to see things from the male perspective - realise that not all the messages are getting though and thinking why that is the case. If we want to win hearts and minds, we want to win men's as well as women's.

Zyn, it's not quite the same thing, is it? Because as Flora says, the less good looking men are often just as bad as ignoring the unattractive women, whereas less attractive women are often quite happy to talk to the less attractive men. The less attractive men don't care. I've found, as a huge generalisation, that more attractive merely ignore me, whereas the unsolicited abuse I've received has come from the shorter/fatter/uglier end of the market. Perhaps fear that they are doomed to a women less than gorgeous makes them hit out.

Obviously plenty of unattractive men do NOT hand out insults, and some men of all types will talk to me or even compliment me. I even managed to marry one.

We are a terribly superficial society. I can appreciate the noses put out of joint by the mere fact Dustin Hoffman is a man saying this, but to be honest I'll take any avenue that might make people think as a positive.

I also don't think women bieng judged on their appearance is the exclusive province of men. It undoubtedly happens and definitely needs challenging, but I was reminded of some married friends of mine. We were all at a wedding and the chap of the couple is quite good looking. His wife was approached by some random female wedding guest, and she enquired who that hot looking man was and upon being informed "oh that's my husband" She was disdainfully looked down upon and asked "how on earth did you manage that?"

Now I am not advocating that we should herald Dustin Hoffman as some sort of hero. He is after all just an actor, but I'm not sure we need to be a child soldier forced to fight in the Congo or a Filipino sweatshop worker to pass comment on the social injustices of those states of affairs in order raise awareness of them.

I mean, I don't want to use the expression either. I sounded like I was criticising you for using it!

Flora, what does MRA/PUA stand for? I agree with what you say though, I don't want to use the expression low status male but yes, I've noticed that average, or very ordinary &/or short unattractive men get angry with all women because the beautiful ones don't see them. They don't register that they are doing the exact same thing, not seeing women who are there in front of them but less attractive.

Actually that is a good point Zyn. I'm not conventionally beautiful. Or beautiful at all actually . I'm average looking at best and probably less than average if I look around my office. It's been a sadness at times but actually my life is great because I made it so.

Men do get a lot more leeway to be plain - the high status people in my office are the men who are all notably plain. But I don't have to put up with the nonsense of having to be an alpha man and living that rubbish all the time so I guess I've reached a point where it's ok for me to be an ordinary looking woman with a good life.

he's only about five foot five. before he was an actor he can't have had much success with women. he might be well-meaning and a little patronising, but it's weird because the ISSUE that I'd imagine he would best understand is how short men are dismissed as contenders....

He was lucky. He had (in his youth) an appealing if not handsome, face, he got into acting, he got married, but he must know that if he were still in his home town working as an estate agent, he'd be considered a short man, and overlooked in the same way as unattractive older women are dismissed.

I do actually appreciate that he said what he thought even though I also feel that maybe he's sadder for unattractive women then they need him to be. I've often thought that beautiful women end up with a better looking bastard!!!! or a better looking lazy arse!! that's it really. Same old shit just a better looking face at the other end of the mundane conversations.

www.pbs.org/newshour/businessdesk/2013/07/gaming-mr-darcy-what-jane-aust.html

Of course, one cannot remain wise while giving full credence to such fantastical notions.

I think it goes beyond comparing how attractive or accomplished people of either sex deal with each other. I'm not talking about pulling or relationships but in social or professional interactions there is a marked difference between the way men and women generally deal with each other.

Both attractive and plain women will generally chat and listen to unattractive or even unaccomplished men based on whether they are interesting or funny or even endure tedious, ugly bores out of politeness.

Both attractive and plain men, whether accomplished or not, are much much more likely to ignore unattractive women, whether accomplished or not.

Unattractive / "low status" (ugh, I hate that term) men generally ignore unattractive women. You see this all the time with MRAs/ PUAs whining about how attractive women won't date them / talk to them. They don't care about or even mention average or plain women. Those women don't even register.

This is consistent with my own experience. I am average looking but can occasionally scrub up reasonably well or look worse than average at other times. I definitely find men in general (not just attractive or "high status") listen more when I look more attractive even in my work. I'm a lawyer so it doesn't exactly call for super model looks. When I worked as a waitress, I made more tips from men when I looked better but the tips from women were much the same however I looked.

Women who lose weight commonly say they felt they had suddenly become visible, not just for dating but in general life. Women as they get older say they become invisible in public life, the street, etc.

(Sorry, do carry on, I realise I've ranted a bit there.)