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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Feeling a bit let down by 'the sisterhood'

355 replies

Hopingitwillallbefine · 01/07/2013 14:05

I am a new(ish) mum to a dd (11 months) and have just returned to work full time. This was not a decision I took lightly but made for a number of reasons, including the fact that we really need the money for a deposit for a new house and I love my job and have worked hard to get where I am, and would like to continue to progress in my career. My DH also works full time. We are fortunate enough to have reasonable working hours (him 9-5, me 8-4) which mean that between us we are at home with dd until about 8.15am in the morning and from 5pm in the evening. Between 8.30 and 5pm dd is at nursery. We chose her nursery because we loved it immediately and continue to be impressed and happy with the quality and standard of care it offers. Dd LOVES nursery, has made a great bond with her keyworker and seems to have such lovely, fun and full days.

Apologies for the boring details of our life - all pretty normal stuff. However the reason for my post and what has really upset me/pissed me off in the past few months has been the attitudes of other women towards the decisions we have made as a family about working hours and childcare arrangements. I have lost count of the occasions that I have been met with undisguised horror, disgust or pity when I've told female friends or colleagues I am back at work full time. Not all of them, but enough to make me feel like a dreadful mother. Responses like "is there nothing you can economise on so that you can drop a day or two?" Or "god you poor thing, that must be miserable". Even my manager has asked me if i want to consider going part time now I am a mum. Similarly, I have been treated to a variety of unhelpful and at times offensive remarks from friends and colleagues about our decision to use a nursery including suggestions that we are risking our dd developing attachment disorder or questions like "is there no way your family could help?" (No), "wouldn't you at least prefer a childminder?" (No), "have you thought about how damaging it could be if your dd's keyworker left?" Etc etc.

These comments are so frequent that I now have a pre-prepared mini speech when people ask about work or childcare to try and head off all the criticisms and 'helpful suggestions'. What annoys me is the implicit assumption that obviously I am only back at work FT out of absolute necessity and that if there were any alternatives at all I would of course be working part time or not at all as all good mothers should - and to admit that I have chosen to return full time partly because I still give a toss about my career and enjoy being at work is tantamount to declaring that I couldn't care less about my dd. Further, I wouldn't dream of questioning another woman's childcare choices and have been really upset and surprised by how many women seem to think that nursery is virtual child abuse and it is their responsibility to educate me on the reasons why. But finally, and the reason for my post in this section of MN is that all of this, without exception has come from other women. Not one man has made me feel bad about my choices or questioned them in any way. Similarly, my husband, who earns exactly the same as me, has never been made to feel bad about being at work FT. Nobody has ever suggested that he might want to go part time now we have a child.

So I just feel a bit let down by women at the moment. I know it is impossible to 'have it all' and I'm not pretending otherwise, but I would like to continue to pursue my career while providing as much care, love and attention to my dd as I can. I love her more than I knew possible and love spending time with her. I feel genuinely excited every day when I go to pick her up and we have a lovely two hours together every evening after work when I am totally and utterly focused on her. We have lovely weekends as a family and spending time together having fun is so important to me. But I also love being at work and enjoy my day and feel so fulfilled by it. Shouldn't other women be supporting me and encouraging me, isn't this equality and freedom what we have fought for for years?

OP posts:
teetering13 · 05/07/2013 11:47

Yes I see that hoping, but I also see that people will offer advice based on their own experiences ... are you friends really attacking you when they say "is there nothing you can economise on so that you can drop a day or two?" or "god you poor thing, that must be miserable" or are they just going off their own experiences? ...

Why do you feel attacked and unsupported when really all they could be doing is imagining/remembering what it was like when they went back to work and (in their minds maybe) trying to help?

Or instead of that ^^ if it's easier to think your friends are commenting because it's socially acceptable to talk about parenting and childcare like it was socially acceptable to talk about n*ers years ago then go for that .... just dream of the day when we don't talk to eachother at all eh .. just shut up in case we offend

OR dream of the day when your hubbys mates talk about their experiences and offer advice to him?

OR wonder wtf it's all getting to you ... like 78bunion says, get ya stock pile of smartarse answers together and get on with it!

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 05/07/2013 11:23

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Hopingitwillallbefine · 05/07/2013 11:19

Teetering can we just establish for the sake of clarity/sanity - you have been extremely clear about your view having repeated it again and again and again. Despite the fact that this is not a discussion about whether or not nursery is the right choice for a baby. There is no need to repeat that view again - nobody is challenging it or telling you that it is wrong. Neither are you being accused of being racist, I'm sorry you haven't been able to follow that argument. The points that buffy and garlic made have been really interesting, useful and articulately presented and have certainly given me a lot to think about. Essentially they are saying that the acceptability of expressing certain views is largely governed by current social norms which have changed over the years and will continue to do so. Thirty years ago it might have been acceptable to remark that same sex relationships or inter-racial relationships were not right because of the culture at the time allowed people to express those views with impunity. That culture has changed meaning that at present it is no longer socially acceptable to make these remarks. However is continues to be socially acceptable and perhaps even subtlety or subconsciously encouraged for women to criticise other women for returning to work therefore maintaining a social norm where men are the breadwinners and women stay at home. Perhaps in the future this culture will change and these remarks will no longer be considered acceptable. So no you are not being called a racist, it is just interesting to consider that racism is not acceptable because it implies that one race should be treated differently from another, whereas gender discrimination which implies that one gender should be treated differently from the other continues to be socially acceptable.

OP posts:
BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 05/07/2013 11:14

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LadyClariceCannockMonty · 05/07/2013 10:58

This is all way over my head now and I couldn't possibly contribute anything intelligent or articulate enough ...

but I wanted to come back to say, essentially, Buffy, you rock.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 05/07/2013 10:34

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teetering13 · 05/07/2013 10:30

Is the gay couple going to put the baby in care for nearly 9 hours a day?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 05/07/2013 10:29

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 05/07/2013 10:20

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teetering13 · 05/07/2013 10:19

"Oh, and also I realise that posters have said they'd also shame the OP's husband because of their choice. I wonder though, in normal circumstances, without first thinking about one's feminist principles, if you would"

What a strange thing to say ... first you assume I'm saying the Mother should stay off work to look after her baby, then you assume I'm only involving the Father because I'm on a feminism board? ... Wow!

For whatever reason people here feel me saying 'I think putting babies in full time care is not best for the baby' is ... an attack on Mothers/Misogyny/opinionated/close to racism/insulting/ripping another person to shreds/trolling

There is no 'sisterhood' .. I came here with an opinion and I haven't changed it ... you can drag whatever you like in to the convo to compare what I said with if you like, but ... well ... it's bollocks

And yeah, to finish off ... I agree with 78bunion ... I might not have phased my opinion well, does that mean it's ok to attack before finding out? ... Luckily I don't give a shit ... and also I agree with 78bunion in general (apart from the bit where they agree with garlic, I personally think garlic is a bit of a nutter, the 'millionaires put their kids in care and they turn out ok' left me thinking 'cuckoo' Wink Grin

78bunion · 05/07/2013 08:54
  1. Sometimes there is a moral duty even to disobey the law (that is a big debate for another thread but it is certainly often considered).
  1. However racist comments at work get you into a lot more trouble that suggesting a mother's place is in the home and if someone returns to work quickly she is damaging her children. (And yes I know the question above was about nurseries and plenty use nannies or grannies instead but the objective issue is the same - whether if you view something as morally wrong such as women all giving up work so men continue to rule the world or you think it damages a child if a parent is not caring for it - whether you should say something and if so how should you phrase it?).
  1. My own view is voice the view but try to be reasonably polite about it if you think there are moral issues at play which might damage the baby or women's rights or whatever.

My advice to a full time working mother constantly criticised by others is have a stock answer turning the question on to the other person to convert them to your own views - did you read XYZ study which shows children of fullt ime working mothers do better? Does it not cause problems at home if you are not in an equal marriage? Is all your husband's family sexist? That must be very hard fo ryou. etc

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 05/07/2013 08:12

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 05/07/2013 08:10

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garlicnutty · 05/07/2013 00:14

Aha, Tabard, you mean if the accuser genuinely believes homosexuals are 'deviant' and feels a moral duty to advise them of this? Possibly even believing, in all honesty, that gay people will suffer in hell, and trying to save them from their awful fate?

Good example. Many people really do believe thus, but it's still numerous kinds of wrong to share their view with a gay colleague. Or any gay person, unless they specifically asked.

NiceTabard · 04/07/2013 22:29

Not caught up sorry but wanted to say

This is about work

If you told a gay person that they were deviant, at work, then you would be reprimanded at best, and sacked at worst.

That is written into employment law.

Assuming it gets reported and HR functions properly, but that's by the by. Point remains.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 04/07/2013 22:21

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kim147 · 04/07/2013 22:14

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 04/07/2013 22:12

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 04/07/2013 22:03

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teetering13 · 04/07/2013 21:44

... hence the racism popping up Confused

teetering13 · 04/07/2013 21:43

We've moved on Kim .. the whole convo moved on, it's not just strictly about what OP said in the OP

kim147 · 04/07/2013 21:40

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teetering13 · 04/07/2013 21:36

'Mothers choices' 'sexist remarks' 'comparable to racist remarks'

I don't think putting babies in full time care is beneficial to the baby.

That does not mean I think the Mother should stay at home and if you assumed that then why?

On a feminist board I'm actually surprised this was assumed.

The OP stated she had a husband working full time too, that's 2 parents working full time, I never stated anywhere that I think the mother should work part time, In this case the Mother feels so strongly about working it'd be natural to assume the father go part time.

Anyway, neither wants to ... do I think that's best for the baby? .. you can guess the answer! ... and apparently this opinion makes me guilty of misogyny Hmm

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 04/07/2013 21:21

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 04/07/2013 21:21

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