we went to a gay pride carnival

I will say I can't remember when I have ever had a negative comment about my appearance from a women. Or heard one IRL from one woman about another. Am I unusual? I think I lead a fairly mainstream life. Maybe not, it seems.

erm, no.

I don't even know what to say to that, tbh.

Some people seem to equate someone sneering at your skirt to putting their hands up it uninvited. Really? Neither is nice, I know that. But they are not the same

I'm having a go at men who act like arses (or worse) towards women and girls
xpost

I feel a lot less put out by a friend saying that my eyeliner isn't straight, to being sexually assaulted.

So call me weird

There is a huge reason to have a go at men. Because many of them leer, lech, make girls and women uncomfortable, and of course some go on to sexually assault, commit DV, rape and so on.

That is deffo worse than someone telling me my shoes are all wrong.
Incidentally, as many men as women have told me my shoes are all wrong.
Fortunately at this stage I couldn't give a fuck.

Who is having a go at men?

It's the patriarchy we're not too keen on.

It's like saying anti capitalists hate factory workers. No.

Oh come off it

The idea that men don't notice whether women are thin or fat, good looking or not good looking, young or old, I mean, Come On!!!!!

So a 90yo pensioner, if she felt hot to trot, could easily garner sexual interest from a bunch of 30 year olds, just by feeling sexy.

And how does that account for the vast amounts of interest men show in girls and women who are not wanting to be noticed in that way?

What a load of utter cobblers

You are seriously suggesting that whether women are given attention by men (unwanted or otherwise) is entirely down to whether the woman subconsciously wants attention, and has nothing to do with her age or looks or anything? That is quite bonkers.

I understand the historical, girls as trophy wives bit, but what I want is a better world for my DDs now and that starts with every woman on this list promising her DD will never again make fun of another woman for her appearance, she won't judge their clothes, makeup or notice if her legs are shaved.

It ain't going to happen is it? Seriously since we aren't going to put our house in order, there is bugger all point in having a go at men.

Jesus startail. So it's all in Coal Dusts head? So these men don't have independent thoughts of their own?

Those little comments CoalDust? All your own fault! get back to feeling fat and sad cos no man wants you!

Sorry. that's not a helpful comment. i will press post anyway

Coal dust, you have lost weight and now see yourself as fackable. I think that's what the men notice.

Your looking for a reaction to your weight loss and the dresses, so you get one.

Something in your body language says now you may judge me. You want them to notice so they do.

Of course it does Startail Otherwise why aren't the little boys all decked out? You said it yourself - it's all sorts of judgements tied up in money, status, parenting tied up in females' looks and how well they conform.

It would be lovely if we just judged looks as looks and left it at that, another attribute to be admired, like a nice singing voice or having a good head for numbers. But there is much ,much woven into that, and much much more for girls.

How do you know that women judge? And why do women not do "oh, do fuck off" in whatever manner suits the occasion.

I know some do it. I know why they do it. I just don't get its import. And I say that as someone who used to do all that conforming shit. I just don't really get why I thought it was important. Since I stopped, my life has just got better. It is only a correlation in terms of mindset i.e. I am not doing better at work because I stopped having continually hair-free legs. I am doing better, though, because I am spending less time worrying about what other people think and more about who I am and what I am doing.

"looking nice"

So you are fully bought into the concept of little girls "looking nice".

Where has that come from? It comes from the fact that historically (moreso) and now (still there) that women's value comes from how they look. The idea that an attractive female might "marry well" (see kate middleton and what was written about her and how she met william) reinforced by the media (pretty woman, my fair lady, disney, a trillion others) and by society in general (men tend to marry younger women, sometimes buy them in from overseas). Much of this is linked to wealth and power - men have it women don't. When women have it and men don't, guess what, they start behaving more like men and putting physical attractiveness ahead of stuff like earning potential.

All of this is built in very deeply to pretty much all cultures around the world. In many places there is still dowry or modern equivalent of. It runs so deep that people somehow think this is "normal" or the "fault" of women. It's is much much more complicated than that and is a result of male dominance and in many cultures ownership of women.

The wearing of teeny clothes and the wearing of covering clothes are coming from the same place. The fact that women sometimes engage in enforcing the "rules" does not change the place they are coming from.

I think they look a bit silly but am secretly pleased they are having to make at least as much effort as the girls for appearance's sake.

I think the grooming thing is becoming more equal. I see straight, fake tanned, overly fit men in tight trousers, low v-necks and perfectly-styled hair everywhere at the moment.

I don't need to wait. I know what happens. (Odd that you posted that here, tbh)

See, context is so important. Ordinarily, I would lament the lack of women or celebrate that they were being recognised.

Little girls looking nice at a party has nothing to do with a society run by heterosexual men. The little girls are dressed up because their mother's think they will be judged by other mothers if they don't put little DD in a posh frock.

All sorts of judgements in money, status and how well you discipline you little girl. Fuck all to do with their fathers.

NT - funny you should say that about your colleagues. I have just lost a stone - health reasons beause I was getting a bit tubby and am getting on a bit. Am now a bit more patriarchally compliant weight-wise and I have dug out some old dresses because my fat clothes don't fit any more (classic horder of clothes that might fit again).

There seems to be some discombobulation occuring. In fact, I would say that there are some problems creeping in because, lo and behold, I am now seen as a woman! And I pass the Patriarchy Fuckability Test because I am lucky with my genes and I am girl-next-door pretty. So, all professionalism has gone out of the window as far as the men are concerned and they are treating me differently. The cocks are out and all manner of put downs are creeping in. The women aren't like that though.

How do you know women judge?

specialsubject has got a point - although to get to that point, you have to wade through all the guff in your head about what is expected of you as a woman. Or not care at all in the first place. It's all very fucked up - I sometimes get to a place where I think "Stop being so fucking narcissistic", then I hear a friend tell me that a bloke shouted "You lesbo" at her out of a van because she doesn't conform and I sigh. Deeply.

Interesting, OP, that you should mention the male-gazeyness or lack of towards women at Pride - I was looking at the pics of Glasto on the DM (shoot me) and was struck my how few men were on there. Do men not go anymore?

And I just visited my Aunt and she had a firefighters calendar up (don't ask). I don't think she was really the target market, regardless of age. It was still male-gazey, albeit gay male. How did I know it wasn't for me? I am visual, I like men and I like men's bodies. What was it in those pics that said to me that they weren't shot for my delectation? Interesting, innit?

Interesting point about the racist thing NiceT. Just thinking about the Stavros stereotype etc - hadn't thought of that before.

I've always found women judge more then men on the whole. I like o wear make up heels etc. I do it because I like the image this projects to men and women, I worry more about wha women will think or say about me.
Going bk to the original post maybe people who go to gay pride events are more confident in their own skin and proud, and I mean that in a positive way and that could influence clothing choices? Plus I don't think I want to see more banana hammocks! But I no many straight men who would, and some who have woren them in public and that us because they ooze with confidence. I also no gay men who would not!