Friends who have been to stripclubs.

It might be to do with getting older. As I get older, I find that I just can't get sexually excited about a man I don't respect. The connection between respect and desire is really strong, which when I was young, it wasn't at all - in fact, I was perfectly capable of wanting to shag someone I didn't particularly even like, let alone respect. I just don't feel like that nowadays. I don't know whether that's old age or just changing tastes or perhaps changing values and much, much higher self-esteem than I had when I was young. I don't know what other people's experience of this is, would be interested to hear.

Madbanners, it's not about finding another woman attractive.

It's about buying into the value system that says he has the right to go and pay for one to gyrate for money for his pleasure.

I just could never respect a man who felt that way. However charming he was, however sweet, kind, funny, good in bed etc., knowing that he sees nothing wrong with buying sexual titillation, would just mean I couldn't see him as a serious, grown up adult worthy of my proper attention.

If we just focus on the man, then where is the line drawn? Strip clubs, pole dancers, underwear models, burlesque dancers, topless women on beaches, women wearing bum-scraper shorts, women the man finds ridiculously attractive....
Are people getting paranoid that their other half may look at someone and find them sexually attractive? You don't need to go to a strip club for that.
I'm genuinely interested in what makes it upsetting for women to know that their partner's at a strip club for a stag do. If it were once a week, whole different kettle of fish...

Yes my female friends hired waiters at a mums night to serve food, dressed in minute aprons and nothing else. Does that count? I don't think any the less of them for doing that.

It's irrelevant whether some of the individual women who strip for money, enjoy it. That's not what this thread is about. It's not about how we feel about the women who do it, it's about how we feel about the men who go and pay to watch them do it.

It would make no difference to me if the stripper was university-educated and found showing her arse to strangers for money so liberating and marvellous that she had multiple orgasms every time she did it; she's not the person I would focus on. I'm not sleeping with her, chatting with her, sharing parenting with her, sharing my closest thoughts and ideas and dreams with her, allowing her to influence and role-model for my children. The person in whose motives I am interested, is the man who pays to watch her. He's not a man I want to live with, irrespective of her motivations.

Are the reasons that you find strip clubs abhorrent to do with exploitation?
Surely if you feel you need to avoid/ not tollerate exploitation, It would be exploitation in general.
I know in RL it's not easy to avoid paying in to industries that exploit people but to get on a soap box about strippers being exploited and then say you don't mind that people in other countries are being exploited to make your cheap clothes is a bit hypocritical.
If you find strip clubs physically disgusting/ seedy etc then its a whole different matter.

A friend was a lapdancer and loved it. Another was a hostess in one and loved it. Friends of friends have done it and loved it. One earnt enough over a couple of years to buy a house outright. None of them were vulnerable or exploited although I agree I'm sure there are some... But people are exploited in all sorts of jobs. I went to one with ex DP - neither of us liked it much. My current DP wouldn't go to one out of choice and I don't think he would feel obliged to go to one with mates but that's because it's not something his friends would do.

It is not a black and white issue and I'm with namechangeguy on all of the double standards.

I know someone who works in a strip club and loves it! It means she can work for really good money at night when he dc are asleep. She does not feel exploited as she sees it as a skilled job. She is good friends with the other girls who work there and practices bloody hard to get her dances right etc
She is university educated and has many employable attributes which means she could have a number of different jobs, if she wanted.
She likes that people (not just men) come and watch her and appreciate her... art.
I think it's a bit shallow to assume that all women are exploited in this industry although it obviously does go on, from what I know in the seedier, cheaper places where they do abuse women and don't let them have choices.
Im going to go right against the grain and say that I wouldn't mind my dp going to watch strippers on a stag night. As long as all involved treat it as a bit of fun. I wouldn't be happy with a private dance as there's no need.
It's not something dp and I are interseted in doing and he hasn't ever done anything like that (since we've been together anyway- in the past, I don't know or care).

It depends how much you insist that everyone you know agrees with your about everything. Some people will not tolerate any disagreement from close friends or family members and cut contact if they see the ;wrong; newspaper lying on the table, others will try to reach a compromise (eg Dear MIL please don't start ranting your low level racist bigotry in front of DC, dear friend, please don't tell my DC that Jesus loves them when we are Hindus....) because, despite disagreeing on certain things, the people in question are otherwise kind, amusing, loyal, practical etc. But everyone has their own limits on this sort of thing.

women aren't allowed to set boundaries about what they will accept in relationships unless they also set other boundaries men deem consistent with the ones they want to set.

Perhaps if OP's friend was a tailor and the discussion was about the exploitation of tailors being made to manufacture cheap t-shirts in sweatshops this would be a valid point.

As it is she is a woman and it is a discussion about her fella's views towards the exploitation of women and their bodies. Fairtrade is a totally different and separate concept.

OP didn't ask about differing views on cheap t-shirts, NCG

I would fully understand the 'leave the bastard' point of view if people were consistent in their views. Ethical food, ethical clothes, ethical banking etc. are all things we should aspire to. But why is there just this narrow focus on visiting a strip club? Is it okay to find strip clubs abhorrent and yet buy clothes from Matalan made in sweat shops, or computers manufactured in Third World countries?

He is a grown man if you don't like what he does leave him.

I've been to them. There are a lot of things I used to see as 'grey areas', which now seem clearer-cut (not entirely, but those are other threads.) My changed perspective has caused relationships with close friends and family members to break down. They're intelligent enough to understand what I'm saying, which is basically that they're misogynists. They don't want to give up their sex trade fun or their self-perception as equal respecters of women, so they give me up instead.

If I wanted to be in love (or even close friends) with a man who went along with the sex trade's illusions, I'd try and educate him enough that he'd want to opt out for himself. But if he didn't? These days, I'd probably let him go, although sad and looking quite crazy to other people.

I would hope that, in such a situation, DH would say "it's not really my thing, I'm going to go for a meal/to that bar over there". Because I hope and expect that he values women enough to make that choice.

I would never tell him what to do, but I would find it hard to get past I think.

I would find "I couldn't get out of it" even worse, if anything, than actively deciding to go. Because that means he's done something he understands is wrong because he's too scared of a bit of peer pressure from his mates. That's worse than ignorance or actually thinking it is ok IMO - at least I could hope to argue with him and convince him on the latter. If he's too scared of his mates to act like a grown up. Well, it would be a big strain on our relationship.

yeah you need to get a clipboard with a list of all these things, with tick boxes next to them and give him a sort of mini interrogation....

Nobody should give money to an industry that exploits those in a vulnerable position. So, he could just say that he will do something else while they are in there, and meet them afterwards.

While your friend is at it, she should also ensure that this guy does not wear clothes or shoes from third world countries. Remember the factory in Bangladesh? Also, check his car - parts are manufactured all over the world before assembly. What about his gizmos? Apple and others exploit workers in China, making them work horrendous hours for a pittance. Fourteen workers committed suicide in 2010 at one of their factories.

No point in any half-measures.

Does he actually want to go or is he doing the I can't get out of it thing?

Either way he's probably telling your friend he can't get out of it which is utter rubbish. The world is apparently full of men who only go to these places because they can't get out of it so it would only take one to say 'actually this isn't my thing, anybody else fancy a bar/meal/whatever instead?' and the stag group could split in two for a couple of hours.

Apparently that's really scary though. Not like having to take your clothes off in front of a bunch of very drunk and entitled complete strangers. That's not scary at all. Not as scary as it is for a man to appear to 'bottle it' in front of his mates

If I were your friend I would be asking two questions:

Do I want to be with someone who enjoys watching and participating in the exploitation of another human being?

Do I want to be with someone who doesn't enjoy, but is willing to put up with, watching and participating in the exploitation of another human being just so he doesn't look a bit soft in front of his mates?

She's entitled to draw a line wherever she wants.

This is less about setting some sort of rule or ultimatum than it is about seeing what sort of man he is and where his values lie.

Nobody has to stay with anybody whose values they abhor.

Yes, DP apparently has lots of lunchtime discussions with his mates about things I've mentioned from MN - I feel like I'm providing a vital public service, educating the neanderthal menfolk via my lovely DP!

Donut, exactly. I know that over the last five years or so, I've changed. My perspectives have altered and as a result, dh has changed too. We've both grown and something that would raise a "meh" or be a bit of fun would now appall us both. And I know that as with porn, he would probably share his new views with his friends.

Lissiloo, I feel that DP is only really beginning to even consider a feminist perspective since being with me, as its not something that has naturally been part of his life before.

I may be making a huge assumption, but his ex doesn't strike me as the feminist type (think TOWIE) and it sounds like his colleagues (who are also his friends and family) are probably of a similar nature. I know he has ingrained opinions but hopefully by having discussions about this sort of thing he will see how awful and outdated those concepts are and start to see a more enlightened way.

I could just disregard all the wonderful things he says and does and dump on the strength of a couple of (apparently pretty dull and cynical) visits to these places in his past, or I could give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he will take my views into account and hopefully share them with others, thereby educating others out of their antiquated attitudes.