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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

the ideal society / culture in which to be a mother?

114 replies

curryeater · 25/06/2013 10:59

I follow a few Mormon Mommy blogs like this:
lovetaza.com/

I also woh full time and argue passionately that women need and deserve full material status in society with equivalent freedoms to men.

I am confused about the tension between two theoretical positions and would like to work out if there could ever be a practical - real life - synthesis of them, in a form that would be a society that is perfect for mothers.

Position a: motherhood is glorious and should be supported for what it is, rather than demanding that mothers do other things at the same time, like earn money, as if motherhood were some kind of "not really a job" type thing. It is best done by intelligent, supported, healthy, creative women who are honoured for what they do. And that means we don't have to ask them to do anything else. Society should channel its resources into them. Breastfeeding is exhausting, home made food and beautiful homes are very demanding of those who make them, and they are enormous gifts to children, families, and wider society. [downsides in practice, if not in theory: women who don't become mothers are scorned; women who want to do other things are not allowed to, or are only accorded second class status; women do not have independent access to money and are basically stuck with a man like a possession, no matter what, which is an abusers' charter]

Position b: women, including mothers, are full complete rounded human beings with the same faculties and rights as men. they can and should take full part in all of human life including varied, interesting, and financially rewarding work. Having children is just one of the things they might do and does not define them. [downsides in practice if not in theory: exhaustion, because mothering is actually a full time job even with help; down playing maternal achievements and lowering status of mothers relative to male indexes of external success; a sense of individual isolation, that if it is not working it is your fault, and it should all be possible; short cuts like formula and ready meals become necessities instead of options, because maternal resources are scarce]

I suppose I like blogs like Taza because I like that she makes mothering look glamorous and aspirational, as opposed to the use of "mumsy" in a fasion sense as being second class and ugly (which I loathe). But it is all firmly grounded within a conservative Mormon ethos in which the woman's place is in the home, and it makes my teeth itch.

So what would an ideal society for mothers look like? Because you can't have position a unless supported by society; which then becomes compulsion. but position b is so lonely and hard sometimes. And I worry that I am honestly not doing mothering as well as I could if I had nothing else to to.

Thoughts?

OP posts:
stargirl1701 · 25/06/2013 15:12

None of the things on your Comic Sans list would really bug me (they would bug my Dad and my MIL).

House priorities:
Dishwasher stacked, run & emptied daily
Laundry washed & folded when the basket gets full
Enough food in the fridge for a day's meals
Toys tidied up before leaving a room
Beds made daily
Floors swept daily (have crawling toddler - wasn't so bothered before)
Nappy wrap & sleeping bag aired outside daily
Formula bottles sterilised daily
All people fed
Toilets left in a clean state for others

We have a cleaner who comes in once a week. We don't iron - waste of energy & time.

curryeater · 25/06/2013 15:11

well I should be working but I will have another go at definitions.

Nice = tier one = things in the ball park of:

no weird smells
no crunchy floors
can find all normal things in the right places
washing up might be draining, but not loads of it standing about waiting to be washed
no more than one load of laundry waiting to be put away; no more than two loads waiting to be washed
all crockery and cutlery that has been put away is genuinely properly clean
no broken crap lying about
all recycling properly sorted
food in fridge and cupboards for a couple of days' meals, nothing going off
Toy boxes contain sorted and unbroken toys. card games, jigsaws, duplo etc, all compiled together
bins emptied
no weird gunk in the bottom of the mug for toothbrushes
clean towels and tea towels out (changed every few days)
no worn out pencils or useless biros in pencil pots

OP posts:
kim147 · 25/06/2013 15:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Exhaustipated · 25/06/2013 14:55

Yes curryeater- I think in France this is actually the case! The state sends round a helpful post natal mothers help :)

curryeater · 25/06/2013 14:34

uptoapointlordcopper, I agree that everyone who lives in a house should do stuff towards keeping it nice, but small children can't do that much, and there are things that have to be actively done that do take time, and one of the things I am resisting is the idea that it will sort of do itself, because that I think "disappears" a lot of important and skilled work.

exhaustipated, interesting points. True that "when you have very small children mothering them can be rather incompatible with housekeeping. " - and wouldn't it be lovely for every new mother to have a home help!

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badguider · 25/06/2013 14:32

I don't think there is one ideal society for motherhood because we're all so different... your posts make me smile because I couldn't care less about clean smooth beds or making sure the pants don't go grey (I buy all black so they can't)... I never make beds, we throw it off when we get up and that lets the sheet/matress air, we're then rarely in the bedroom again till bedtime when we straighten it all out to get into it again :)

So... because our personal ideas of 'mothering' 'parenting' and 'housekeeping' are so varied I don't think any society can be 'ideal' because no matter how liberal a society it still always idealises one model of being above others.

For me, i'd go with the equal parenting society after the post-natal / exclusive bf period. Where we each work about 20 hours a week out of the home doing whatever brings in money and gives us professional satisfaction and we each parent when we're at home... parenting looks slightly different for us - i'm more into nature walks and could live simple snacks - bit of bread and cheese and an apple, my husband is more into cooking great meals, but that variety adds up to more than the sum of the parts in terms of parenting imo.

Exhaustipated · 25/06/2013 14:23

Aaagh sorry for double post.

Exhaustipated · 25/06/2013 14:22

Agree with Uptoapoint

Actually, when you have very small children mothering them can be rather incompatible with housekeeping.

I am very interested in your initial queston (now somewhat sidetracked by male parenting discussion).

There are many women who want to be at home full time when the children are young but then return to the world of work when they are older.

An ideal set up might include:

-more respect given to importance of early mothering in society. More communal networks for mothers to support each other abd/or extended family structures
-state subsidies for study/training whilst women are mothering, designed around mothers free time (evenings)

  • fathers not working such long hours that they can't take on a good share of the housework abd/or state provided home help for those with very young children (well you did say ideal!)
-open door policy for returning to work

I think in these circumstances those women who wanted to be at home could do, whilst still retaining sense of a work/career self. Also it would make it a much more attractive proposition for men, if both parties were happy to share or swap roles.

I accept this is mostly quite unrealistic but fun to sketch it out/think about which bits could become real...

I am particularly interested in the idea that motherhood in our society is a much too isolated experience.

Sorry for typos, writing on my phone whilst BFing!

Exhaustipated · 25/06/2013 14:21

Agree with Uptoapoint

Actually, when you have very small children mothering them can be rather incompatible with housekeeping.

I am very interested in your initial queston (now somewhat sidetracked by male parenting discussion).

There are many women who want to be at home full time when the children are young but then return to the world of work when they are older.

An ideal set up might include:

-more respect given to importance of early mothering in society. More communal networks for mothers to support each other abd/or extended family structures
-state subsidies for study/training whilst women are mothering, designed around mothers free time (evenings)

  • fathers not working such long hours that they can't take on a good share of the housework abd/or state provided home help for those with very young children (well you did say ideal!)
-open door policy for returning to work

I think in these circumstances those women who wanted to be at home could do, whilst still retaining sense of a work/career self. Also it would make it a much more attractive proposition for men, if both parties were happy to share or swap roles.

I accept this is mostly quite unrealistic but fun to sketch it out/think about which bits could become real...

I am particularly interested in the idea that motherhood in our society is a much too isolated experience.

Sorry for typos, writing on my phone whilst BFing!

kim147 · 25/06/2013 14:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

UptoapointLordCopper · 25/06/2013 13:53

I'm also interested in the "ideal" society for motherhood. Don't have time now, but a few random points to make:

  • Motherhood is not housekeeping. Two extremely different things.

  • Housekeeping is not the job of the mother or the father. It is the job of all who live in the house. When DS1 says "I'll just fix this last piece of Lego and I'm come and help you dry the dishes" (yes he does say that Grin) I say "You are not helping me dry the dishes. Drying the dishes is not my job. We all muck in because we live in this house."

curryeater · 25/06/2013 13:40

kim147, I don't accept "sexist" as meaning "unfairly discriminating against men" (if that is what you mean) because the asymmetry between men's and women's positions under patriarchy means that it is not useful or helpful to apply the word symmetrically.
I also don't accept that my experiences are anomalous and there are lots of men who are as good at all these as women. A few, or some, of course; not lots or most. I just don't see that around me. Among my trendy lefty feminist-talking friends, the men don't walk the walk.

LordCopper, of course there is some stuff you just can't do, as things are - I accept this - I am interested in a theoretical basis for society in which things could be done properly.

OP posts:
curryeater · 25/06/2013 13:36

I would like to run a finishing school for men. It would be called CLEAN UP YOUR ACT, DIPSHITS or WOMAN UP! I would stride around with a cane banging surfaces scarily. I would open the session like this:

"You have been fed the line that house keeping and childrearing is easy. [THWACK!] I am here to disabuse you of that pathetic notion. [THWACK!] It is a rumour put about by certain women who are addicted to humility, appeasement, and self-deprecation. It is BULLSHIT. [THWACK!] These jobs are hard. I know how to do them. [THWACK!] You do not. If you want to know - if you want to learn - if you want to be a real man - then you need to LISTEN [THWACK!] LEARN [THWACK!] and PRACTISE [THWACK!].

"Today we start with lesson one: Laundry. And we are starting right at the beginning, when the clothes come off. CHECK THE POCKETS NOW. [THWACK!] Why can't you check them later? Because it's easier now? WRONG! [THWACK!] You WILL check them later. You check them NOW [THWACK!] AND you check them LATER."

etc etc

Do you think it will be popular?

OP posts:
kim147 · 25/06/2013 13:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

UptoapointLordCopper · 25/06/2013 13:30

Is there a definitive Domestic Lite list? Looks interesting. Will comment later.

UptoapointLordCopper · 25/06/2013 13:29

No one to teach the men this stuff - well, we start now. Change things in a generation or two. Wink

They won't listen - well, the men that are worth the effort will. They ones who won't will breed themselves out of the gene pool. Hopefully. Grin

Women believe the men won't listen - not a good reason to give up.

I get that not having things done properly bugs you. Smile I see in my own domestic life that certain things bug me enough for me to do something about, certain things bug me but I can live with them, and certain things just don't bug me at all. I think these things are by no means standard across the board. You may be horrified to know that I don't iron anything and that my whites are not as white as my MIL's castoffs. Grin

BettyCrockerLover · 25/06/2013 13:28

Wow, the blog lady has such a nice charmed-looking organized life!

curryeater · 25/06/2013 13:25

To continue the schema - I am totally opposing the need for any tier Z bullshit, which is not only pointless but actively undesirable, like:

Air fresheners
Fabric softener
twiddly ceramic ornaments
Bizarre and complicated puddings
Violently clean, palely upholstered houses which give you the fear

But these are the kinds of houses in which you are least likely to get a home made dinner or biscuit.

OP posts:
curryeater · 25/06/2013 13:17

Thanks for that really interesting link, scallops. Agree that eve/psych bullshit is bullshit.

Uptoapointlordcopper:

1 - I know, but there is no one to teach the men this stuff because the women (on the whole) know it and the women are not teaching it to men because they won't listen, or because they believe they won't listen, or because we are all pretending these skills don't exist as things that need to be learnt - I see it again and again on here "it's not rocket science". ARGH!

2 - These grey pants went grey because washed with the wrong stuff, not because it was any cheaper or more eco. Actually doing things right can be better, not worse, for conservation and is one of the things that really bugs me about Comic Sans Domestic Lite -that it is wasteful as well as inelegant. But even still - the inelegance itself bugs me.

Classic Examples Of Comic Sans Domestic Lite:

Buying food at random, shoving it at the front of the fridge, allowing food at back to go off, never really knowing what is in there

Cooking the same few meals again and again, including beige things from the freezer

Not dealing with clean laundry quickly and snappily so it sits getting more and more crumpled and will need to be ironed.

but never actually ironing it.

Then re-washing it perhaps

replacing things instead of mending them (or even finding them!)

Throwing toys into boxes at random so that they are effectively useless to the children and so all they play with is the piece of plastic tat that was attached to the comic, which they successfully whinged the Domestic Lite Practitioner into buying, because

  • feeble response in the face of whinging
OP posts:
stargirl1701 · 25/06/2013 13:12

I think it is about upbringing. I grew up in a house where everyone chipped in, regardless of gender, so that was my 'normal'. My Dad grew up in the same environment. His chores as a boy were polishing shoes and all the ironing for the house. As a child, my chores were drying dishes and cleaning bathrooms, my brother's were laundry and hoovering and my parents split the rest. As teenagers we just pitched in.

My DH grew up in a house where Mum did everything. I made it abundantly clear, in the early days of our relationship, that that was a deal breaker for me. I was not prepared to be with, or have a family with, someone who didn't do an equal share of housekeeping.

The only thing he's not good at is remembering the programme details for the nappy wash - he asks every time!

UptoapointLordCopper · 25/06/2013 13:02

On domestic stuff:

  1. A lot of women are "good" at the details because they've spent almost all their lives learning and doing it. Therefore a lot of men can be "good" at it too if they are taught and they do them. Nothing to do with penis or vagina. (This is the same argument for women being CEOs or engineers or physicists. Really. Nobody operates machinery, be it a washing machine or some particle accelerator, with genitals.)

  2. We need to question "standards". Nowt wrong with grey pants. Smile Think of all the chemicals we use and all the energy we use in the quest of snow white pants. Think of the planet!

curryeater · 25/06/2013 12:57

Exactly. I feel like there is this don't-scare-the-horses orthodoxy which is all gung ho and positive about male involvement at home, because let's face it we certainly couldn't have any less, but what goes with that is this very unthreatening comic sans acceptance of domestic-lite, to make sure that they aren't challenged too much.

Let me be clear, my standards are not about frilly Kath Kidston dreams of over-iced cakes etc. I just mean well managed meals, waste free food shopping, home made food, clean kitchens and bathrooms, toys and drawing things sorted into sets and stored accessibly so that they can be easily and independently played with by small children who are too small to sort them themselves, nice clean smooth beds, properly washed dishes that aren't put into the cupboards scummy, clothes and swimming kit etc nicely organised for spontaneous fun events, (because you don't know if the sun will ever come out again and the one day it is you don't want the cozzies to be in a mouldy unusable heap), availability for and interest in small children's education (even if not formal education), family admin done nicely and filed, even family archiving (photos, drawings etc), recycling done properly, breastfeeding, basic gardening...

Only one of those things can't be done by men but the rest are usually done by women.

This stuff is what I would call first tier.
Second tier would be things like making bread and growing own vegetables.
Third tier would be making bespoken curtains, joinery, sophisticated home-done couture.

I can't even dream of tiers 2 and 3. A properly done tier 1 is out of my grasp right now. I mean properly done. And I want to know how that can be done, even if only in theory, without having women barefoot pregnant bored and abused.

OP posts:
OctopusPete8 · 25/06/2013 12:46

Sweden. Denmark those kind of countries, apparently there is less child poverty there too.

scallopsrgreat · 25/06/2013 12:45

The Bayaka are proving that men can do it too (without all the evo/psyche bullshit)

scallopsrgreat · 25/06/2013 12:43

This blog post is quite interesting. The Bayaka sound really interesting as do the Mosuo. Especially that DV is almost non-existant. None of the western cultures can claim anything like that Sad