the ideal society / culture in which to be a mother?

I not defined by being a mother,it's not the completeness or making of me
I do many things,that include being a parent.all these things shape me
This thread is a knit your own lentils wish list.id not want a year off work,and certainly not to bf

Surely the aim is that all people and families are in a position where they can play to their strengths and allocate work - whether in the home / out of the home / child care - as fits best.

The two positions in your OP are ones I don't recognise.

What is the "beautiful home" stuff?
Why is it called "mothering" when actually it's parenting? In our household DH is much better at that stuff than me.
Conversely, I love going out to work and am better at earning money than him.

We are both not shit-hot on housework and stuff kind of gets done as a joint effort as and when it starts to get out of hand.

I don't think we are that unusual at all. Surely we need to all live as we feel comfortable without fear of being judged in matters such as how many loads of washing there are or the state of the toothbrush mug (I mean, seriously?) and dole out the work each according to ability and after that just so it gets done.

So DH is better at "mothering" and I'm better at Engineering. So what? We've got all the bases covered

God your post are depressing op,pigenhole women into mothering as if its heroic,saintly
Look sooner we escape the tyranny of mothering and associated sentimental tasks the better
Parenting is act of adult being a responsible parent lose the saintly mothers routine.its cliched

I wasn't really aware that 'men' didn't pitch in until I joined MN.

Have you never been to family gatherings where the men sit around drinking beer and chatting while the women gather in the kitchen helping prepare the food/lay the table/wash up?

I wasn't really aware that 'men' didn't pitch in until I joined MN. I've been really shocked with some threads. I guess I extrapolated from my experiences. You go with what you know.

I'm a new Dad, and looking at bieng the sahp. Having a child is the most important thing I will ever do, and my son will have the best of me. I'm not posting this for brownie points, because to be frank my attitude should be baseline normal for all human beings. Problem is that this attitude is the default assumed for women, but not for us men. Until that changes things will continue as they are.

I actually get a little annoyed when friends react with surprise at my aspiration (male and female). I also get a bit cheesed off with the assumption that we men are somehow incapable, I mean Christ I know 100% some things will get on top of me, but any failure or mistake will be met in some circles with a knowing nod as some preconception is confirmed. No parent gets everything right.

I do believe we are as a society making a bit of a pigs ear of parenting atm. The focus of discussion are on the rights of men and women, the rights to work, to financial independence etc etc. The crucial question to me is the rights of children to decent parenting. I don't give a particular fig which parent makes sure that happens as long as somebody does. I don't like the basic assumption it should be the woman. I don't like the outmoded notion that the person who brings home the bread or bacon has some sort of primacy over the household, and greater standing in society.

To me the situation appears out of whack. At some point in human evolution we took what was supposed to be a complete human being. Split them in half, called one half feminine, and one half masculine, assigned one to men, and one to women. Then later we compounded the sin by denigrating and belittling the feminine and subjugating it to the masculine. We've progressed an inch by allowing women into the mascularchy if they play by the rules, and surprise surprise many excelled as they started being complete human beings, but I think many still feel a dissonance targeted at the half of them still being denigrated.

As for me I just want to be a good Father, the single most significant thing a man will ever be. I do believe a lot of the unfairness and nonsense in society if more men tried to be whole.

cat Following from last post, so society has a very significance influence on a child growing up. Hence there are people who are completely puzzled by, eg, pink "girly" daughter, when they themselves are quite the opposite. However, I think it is our role to educate our children not to be complete arses - not the mother's job, but everyone's. That's how we change society, is it not?

And you are right, I think, about the research showing that women tend to do more in the house, whether they have high-flying jobs or not. At least it says so in Delusion of Gender.

And I see what you mean about the burden being ours to sort out the rubbish chucked all over the place by the patriarchy. What should we do?

Thats not true I dont think cat if your dad does it then your dh will do it, regardless of whatever anyone else does. Well it is in my case I think most people marry men with charcateristics similar to their dads, be that good or bad.

cat Interesting post. Will think about it more. It does say, in Delusion of Gender, that however much of an effort you make, the child will see what is "natural" around. If the child sees that no other man (eg all his/her friends' fathers) does the washing up then however much the child's father washes up he/she will think that "proper" dads don't do the washing up. So yes, I see myself as living as I believe I should live, and hope for the best. It is a bit depressing, isn't it?

Dh does all of your list but breastfeed, and I am not in the slightest impressed. Surely thats just normal behaviour? My dad was the same.

curryeater - Juliet Mitchell was interviewed in "The Guardian" a while back, discussing feminism an her life. she was reflecting on feminist politics in the years after her first feminist book was published.

The line that stuck out for me was where she said something along the lines of: "Of course, we completely overlooked the issue of the labour of childcare. And how much work it is."

There is something so incredibly profound about that. In ways, I think, that Juliet Mitchell herself was oblivious to as she wrote it.

That first book was about the intersection, and occasional clash between, socialism/Marxism and feminism - thus a book, you would think, which would have a discussion of theories/conceptualisations of gendered labour, gendered reproduction at its heart - that, after all, is where the theories will come into contact ...

so how the hell do you overlook the gendered labour of parenting?????

It is a lacuna, I would say, the effects of which we are still dealing with.

some people's 'home' and 'homemaking' just means so much more to them than others.

DH and I have just spent the last three weekends away in our campervan and will probably be away again this weekend. Yes, we're beginning to suffer on the home front from rushed laundry, messy house, big jobs needing done (trip to tip, clearing of nursery for impending arrival, preparation for some diy).... but on the whole we prefer to 'parent' by taking long bike rides, going away in the van, exploring nature etc... neither of us care very much about the niceties of homemaking even in an 'ideal' world - we're happy if the whole family is fed, clean, healthy and happy.

Back to the subject, curryeater, I'm awed by your bravery in writing:

"I suppose that is what is bothering me about the "parenting" ideal - I think it elides all the hard work that goes into traditional mothering, which actually, I'm afraid, does make people's lives better. It matters. and half arsed bish bash bosh jobs aren't as good. It's fine - I don't judge anyone for bishing boshing - lord knows I do it - but in talking about the ideal I am acknowledging that I yearn for circumstances under which things could be done well."

I am just lurking on this thread, really, and just assimilating the implications of it.

Just going back a little bit, to where the thread started on the: "We will educate (our) men to be different" thing.

I just want to point out that this is a trope, and it needs to die. Right here; right now.

We women do not have to take on the added burden of educating men to be different - not our husbands, fathers, partners, brothers, sons, etc. i know you mean sons, but ... no. We don't.

Why not?

A. It implicitly means saying that the mess we're in is down to the generation above not educating their sons. I suggest that that is nonsense.

Do we really think that it simply didn't occur to these women to try for non-sexist sons?

No.

That makes no sense.

B. And this is part of (A) actually, when you think about it. To say we are going to educate our sons is actually to take on a whole load of responsibility that is (1) hard work and (2) we can't follow through on.

For a start, is parenting really as easy as brainwashing your child into following the desired pattern of behaviour - be that becoming an accountant; attending Cambridge; going into the army; or growing up to be Non-Sexist Sid? Is that possible? The many threads in "Teenagers" suggests that children can be alarmingly free-thinking and self-determining. And would we want to programme them - supposing we could? Would we feel wholly comfortable? And if we did ... fuck me ... we would be so rich, because we would be setting up consultancies the world over to teach various dictatorships how to produce the model, docile, citizen. The CIA would be taking lessons from us.

No-one, anywhere, has learned how to do this.

I do think that the best we can hope for is to set a good example, give a good argument in favour of, and hope for the best. But be aware that our children will hear many voices, and ours will compete alongside those.

If my child, tomorrow, turns out to be a femicidal sociopath, I will know I did my best to put forward arguments in favour of women's equality and humanity - but I refuse absolutely to be held responsible should he not take that path.

Basically, I think men's lesser contribution in the post-child home is learned. It is acquired. It is learned from the wider culture, and is acquired by boundary testing. It won't stop until society as a whole sends a clear message that it is as unacceptable as drink driving.

We are light years from that.

As to all those who tell curryeater that she is just unlucky, hasn't met a lot of men, and that, actually, loads of other chaps - other than the ones she is basing this anecdotal evidence on - are pulling their weight equally ... that's not true, really, is it?

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but isn;t there masses and masses and masses of research that shows that home labour post-children is, in the majority of cases, falling unequally on the female partners?

OK.

That was off-piste but ... I do get really bored with the whole "We will educate our sons differently" thing. We really, really need to lose that one. It is not at all helpful.

What sort of important skill will be "disappeared"?

I can think of one: I have no clue how you "starch" something.

There is no ideal, but if there was, it would be equal parenting. And parenting is different to housekeeping. The amount of times I've had it out with DP about housework...many men don't understand how much work goes into raising a child or running a home, but they will never understand if we never teach them. Some are just hardheaded and will never get it, but the vast majority just need to see how hard it is for themselves.

Exhaustipated makes good points

My ideal society would be a bit more hippish well rounded.

I think a maximum number of actual hours worked should be enforced. None of these city types working 60 hours a week.

I (oddly enough) quite often read the if you give up work for maternity leave you may as well not bother going back most in feminist areas. Which winds me up no end. Give some respect to a woman who is doing a hard job and respect her when she goes back to work. This will lead to several things

1. More women back in the work place.

2 More men realizing "women's work" is actually a respectable job in society and choosing these roles for themselves.

1. A "baby-centric" society that assumes breast feeding is normal and allows for a woman to breast feed and have a year off for maternity leave to do so. Not a year off from when they first get ill in pregnancy etc, but an actual year off. A full salary to keep her and her family going. A guaranteed job at the end of the year, no getting made redundant on ML etc.

1. Expressing rooms and extra breaks for women who are pumping so that bf can become part of normal society again and improve things like infant mortality and health for society in general.

1. I think a sahp is actually very good to society at large they can do the unpaid voluntary work that people need they do local care for people in their community.. so making it socially acceptable for either sex to stay at home is very important

In my ideal society mothers would stay at home for the first year and after that it would be a 50/50 split of men and women staying home. Although excellent child care provided by the state if parents do want to work or are single parents should also be available

And also a month of mandatory paternity leave in the first year.

I also think that society seeing the inherent value of the sahp means that they would all be in a position of getting jobs again after their children are back at school.

I think taking the extreme xena approach to women working as actually kept far more women out of the work place than got them back in. Deep down I don't think most parents want to be back at work after 2 weeks.

No doubt there would be some parents irritated by my "perfect society" but not as many as are unhappy without current situation.