the ideal society / culture in which to be a mother?

LandaMc Can you link to the research please? I have never found myself to be "attuned" to my babies, whatever that means. I do remember, though, at a baby massage group, the leader told us a story about a father who cared for the newborn baby while the mother went back to work fairly early. He woke up just before the baby started to cry in the night. Even in my hey day I didn't manage to be quite so attuned. (Faulty maternal instinct. Somebody forgot to install it.)

I was brought up by a mum and dad that both worked. My dad cooks, cleans, can look after any amount of babies, children on his own and take them out places as he does all the time with babies and children in the family. He taught me to read, write, ride a bike, swim etc. Hes attuned to all my problems and interests even now Im an adult. I then went out and met a dh who is just like him.

Notgoodnotbad- I have never been to anything where the women are running around after the men washing up, cooking, cleaning or drinking beer. What kind of doormat would stand for that?

I obviously have a weird dh then he was just as competent from the off with both ours.

LandaMc - you go from talking about mothering 'newborns' to talking about fathering children age 6 or 7... there's a LOT of time between those two...

I agree that a mother has a unique role with a 'newborn' but I would class a 'newborn' to be under 3months old... and I believe a father can be playing an equal parenting role by 6months (IF both parents choose that).

Just want to chip in... I think that the idea that men and women can be equally good at parenting a newborn is sexist. Bear with me. After childbirth a mother is physically and mentally attuned to her baby in a way that the father simply is not. For example, studies have shown that (if breastfeeding and cosleeping) the mother's sleep cycle adapts to match the baby, and the baby often imitate its mother's breathing, using her as a breathing 'pacemaker'. Videos of cosleeping mothers show that Mothers also look after the baby while the mother is sleeping, eg adjust the baby's position / blankets. The research shows that fathers simply don't have those instincts or that close link to a newborn. This is biological fact. More generally I found caring for a newborn completely natural and instinctive, while my husband was lovely and enthusiastic but nowhere near as competent - not noticing baby's temperature, accidentally scaring baby, etc etc.

Mothering is called mothering for a reason. We're evolved to do it well. The idea that to say women make better mothers than men is like saying men make better engineers is bizarre. Engineering is a learned profession. Mothering is founded in the close biological link between the baby and the body it came from. Fathering is an important but very different role and becomes more important when the child is around 6-7.

In our culture we're still adjusting to the feminist revolution (yay) that explained to the world that women are as good as men. But to use equality as a reason to diminish and ignore a mother's unique parenting role is in my opinion anti-women and sexist. Whether men are any good at cleaning is a totally different issue!

Of course as the baby grows older the father can learn to be (nearly!) as good as mum at childcare, and of course there are exceptions with some mums not being very in tune with their instincts and some dads being particularly sensitive, but in general it's bizarre to suggest that parenting should be exactly equal. This diminishes the mother's unique contribution early on.

Going back to Curryeater's question - perhaps an ideal society for mums would see life as having a series of chapters and being a mum would be a noble and tough, but optional, life chapter during which she would totally focus on the child for say 5 years. Some UK companies offer a 5 year career break for family and I thought that a good approach.

What makes me really sad at the moment is the fact that instead of women having achieved more freedom by having the option to return to work, every woman I know wanted to spend at least 3 years being a full time mum, but (with 1 exception) felt forced by circumstance and culture to go back to work within the first year. So a nasty side effect of efforts toward equality has ended up separating a lot of mothers from babies... So sad.

Curry - I sort of get what you're saying after your last post where you say: "I do not imply that someone who nurtures their children in other ways instead is not as good. I am saying, I want to do this, and I think it is ok to be proud if it if I can"

But the problem is by asking about 'ideals' in society and culture you WERE implying that your version of nurturing/mothering is 'ideal'...

I see now you might mean how would an ideal society/culture give YOU the choice to be the mother YOU want to be, while also letting people like me be the very different 'mother' I want to be in my family where parenting is shared and housekeeping is a low priority... ???

I will add most threads on here are from where one parent stays at home if you were brought up with both parents working then both doing fair share is the norm ime.

Curry- Until I came on here I assumed most men did this yes. Obviously its not true but I would say a man not doing his fair share is not the norm.

The concept of Ideal is a significant part of the problem for many Women I feel.

I also dislike how people who choose not to have children are seen as a deviation from the norm. As far as my own adult children are concerned I have emphasised that the decision to have a child should only be made if they cannot bear to be without children. It needs to be more of an opt in decision as opposed to opt out. This almost certainly has its roots in the Judaic-Christian-Muslim view of marriage as for the procreation of children as opposed to procreation of family life which may or may not include having your own children.

A rich contribution to society is not synonymous with child rearing and until this is recognised (by parents especially), we'll remain a long way off any kind of equality for the sexes because it enshrines parenthood and specifically Motherhood with a vocational air. And whenever we talk vocation, inequality and lack of recognition tends to result.

I disagree with those suggesting what OP is saying is retrogressive, schmaltzy, etc.

I think it's actually a discussion that is absolutely imperative at this stage of capitalism. Just my opinion but I think we are balking at having this discussion and deferring it: from fear; from desire to avoid rupture (of self and female political subject); from difficulty.

I further suggest that we need to have it, or we are going to find that laws and social practices are imposed on us, and children, that really do not make us happy.

I find it absurd that we will talk a lot about women's (paid) work but we are terrified about having an adult discussion about the labour of parenting because of fear.

I say all that as a woman who has been a WOHM.

I think we pull back from a discussion of what is the real and necessary work of being a mother (and I've discussed elsewhere why I politically and strategically use that term) out of fear that we will hand political ammunition to those who do not wish us well - either seeking to return us to the home without choice; seeking to reduce our "selves" to the identity "mother", and so on. We stop the conversation short because we don't want to inflict pain on women who are working out of the home. We stop because we don't want to cause hurt to ourselves.

I don't think it's helpful. We end up with a conservative, right wing discourse, that is padded out with a dollop of liberalism: well, let's all just be nice, and accept one another's choices.

That works to a point. But it leaves us with no way of discussing why it is that women end up foreshortening their careers in order to put in the mothering hours that men by and large aren't doing.

And then implicitly getting told that they did that for "nothing" because the work they sacrificed paid, visible, work to do ... doesn't exist - conceptually.

And we end up in a situation where Gove can argue that the school day should be lengthened so that women and children can make the wheels of capitalism go faster.

There really should be a highly evolved political discourse - a gendered, feminist one, that takes account of the value of mothering - that can tell him to go fuck himself there.

And I say all that as a woman who really does not want to do full time mothering. I just don't. It's physically gruelling and psychically exhausting - if it's done well.

And it is is possible to do it badly. Various degrees of badly and well. I love Winnicott for giving me the phrase "good -enough mothering" but ... I think we need to be grown-up and acknowledge that it can be done along a continuum of bad to good, and different things have different outcomes and different values.

I don't think we should be childish about this. If you are employing a nanny, you will interview, and assess, and make a cost-benefit analysis as to the skills they offer.

Ooops have to go....

Schmaltzy sentimentality has clouded your reasoning.mothers are not heroic
Like all activities,there is range of ability,variance.there is no global heroic mother
Applying your logic if woman not mother is she un- heroic?is that a lesser state than hero?

Ahh,I see a lame attempt at word play to deflect from your posts op.
I said your posts are depressing ,in that they mythologise and sentimentalise mothering
This is limiting and of no benefit to define women so narrowly.what about women who aren't mothers?are they lesser in your schema

The blog post is interesting. Apart from being nominally "matriarchal" what other characteristics do the three tribes share? Intrigued now, so shall have to do some reading. What I suspect is that none of these tribes have been touched by capitalism or state control & greed or share a preponderance for Kath Kidson interiors!

Your original "theoretical" position:

"It is best done by intelligent, supported, healthy, creative women who are honoured for what they do. And that means we don't have to ask them to do anything else. Society should channel its resources into them. Breastfeeding is exhausting, home made food and beautiful homes are very demanding of those who make them, and they are enormous gifts to children, families, and wider society."

I get that this is a 50s / victorian vision but equally you wrote it from your own interpretation so I think there is something there. Mainly because you later wrote a long list of what was / wasn't considered acceptable in a house and included some bizarrely specific things, which kind of indicates that you do think that way.

Personally I couldn't give a monkeys at the state of someone's toothmug, and am a bit surprised that is a "thing".

My list of essentials includes things like:
No-one smells, nails cut, teeth brushed
Clean clothes
Homework done
Organisation like paying lunch money, correct lunch for school trips in hand etc under control
That sort of stuff.
State of pencils/ toothmug not even on the cards, frankly. If that is something you care about, then great, keep it under control. Many of the things on your list though I would consider "nice to have" rather than essential.

Maybe that's why I don't feel I have so much work to do.

I think you are making the mistake of thinking your standards are the norm, and then saying it is lots of work, and the men you know won't do it / don't get it. But TBH I think your standards are high and lots of women wouldn't do / get those things off their own bat either.

Mothering is a verb, mother is a noun. So I guess you can be a mother Scottish but that doesn't have to infer that you are mothering.

My ideal culture/society wouldn't define me by mothering.
mothering is limiting me to those schmaltzy culturally created tasks
So if I pursue career,ovation,don't take long mat leave us that incompatible with mothering

Curry eater, I didn't used to think my experience was unusual but, increasingly, I am questioning my world view.

Hi NotGood. I haven't been to family gatherings where that happened, no. I would find it odd if all the women disappeared into the kitchen. I do find family gatherings break into age groupings but not gender groupings.

My PILs are very traditional - but I assumed it was a farmer thing/age thing. My DH (now) can't get over how his Dad just sits and is waited on. My MIL can't believe DH can cook, clean, do laundry, change a nappy, etc. She'll often comment to others, 'DH made X - and it tasted good!' like it is a revelation

My eyes have been truly opened on MN - to redoubling the feminist cause and eliminating DV.