Not 'news' to anyone here, I know, but scary article about motherhood and academia

Oh, I do like that JSM quote, Lord Copper.

I was an academic. DH still is.

My 3 pregnancies were difficult (hyperemesis) and I lost a lot of time and, worst of all, there was a lot of time when I wasn't off work but wasn't working at anything like full capacity due to all the sickness and it is difficult to get medical certification for that.

DH and I agreed that once my maternity leaves were over his career would take a back seat and he could catch up.
That time arrived, they were closing departments like his all over the place, his research had inevitably been affected by the children and sickness too, so we found ourselves in a position where not only was my career very uncertain, but if we risked him doing any less work than he had been doing, his could go down the tubes as well.

So I've been at home for nearly 4 years now and his is nearly back up to speed again

It makes me laugh, when I was at school a Very Successful Woman Scientist came to speech day. She told us about how lucky she had been to successfully manage career and family (she was really lovely and actually quite subversive because the message our school wanted to give us was that we would all do everything.) She explained that she was only able to do this because her dh had already got established in his field so he really could take a back seat and do the childcare once the babies came along.
I only later found out who her dh was. He was Ernst Chain and when she said his career was established by the time they had kids, she meant he had got the Nobel Prize for the discovery of penicillin

ruby - yes, no one-size-fits-all, inconvenient!

edam - it is a shame.

Which brings us to an appropriate John Stuart Mill quote: "In all things of any difficulty and importance, those who can do them well are fewer than the need, even with the most unrestricted latitude of choice: and any limitation of the field of selection deprives society of some chances of being served by the competent, without ever saving it from the incompetent." From The Subjection of Women.

uptoapoint I think it might be good advice for some women, but I also think it's difficult to say what we should do once babies are on the scene as they all behave so differently. I found my DD hard work, and my experience of early motherhood was not easy, so I think the added pressure that I should also have been cranking up my career might have caused me to crack! But, not everyone has the same experience as I did, and for others it may well be a good time to put in more to their careers.

That's a good question edam! Most of the time I think it's somehow my fault for not being able to get on in academia, like if I'd done something differently or made different choices it'd be easier. But then other times I just want to stamp my feet and demand that the system do more to keep me because I'm brilliant(!) and it'd obviously be a big loss to have me move elsewhere ;)

It's interesting to hear academics talking about why there are so few senior women in universities and institutes. I'm merely a hack but have worked with academics and realised how difficult it is for women to progress - and how even those that do are sometimes patronised by their colleagues.

One small example - friend of mine who was a researcher in a particular area of science at a world-class university. She also has a baby daughter. She couldn't face having to move countries ever four years or so - she's from another European country, her dh is British (and has a career that involves travel).

She's left the university and taken a job as a press officer at a research institute in the town where she lives. The press officer job does have to be a scientist, it's not a role that any old hack could walk into, but what a loss to research! Far better work-life balance - even working fulltime, there's an onsite nursery so she can go and see her dd at lunchtime and pick her up the minute she leaves work.

But why is academia squeezing out people like my friend, who is now not conducting crucial biological research, but dealing with PR in an entirely different area of science?

I felt that there is much more that needed talking about now they are older. More things that are less clear cut, IFKWIM. To quote one of the Ice Age movies (the one with the dinosaur) - when they are small the morals are easier "You do NOT eat other people's children". But when they are older the rights and wrongs seem to be so much blurrier, if that's a word .. And now I must go and get the little darlings!

I don't know, if that worked for her, then it's useful advice for other women to think about.

I personally felt much more physically needed by my DC when they were babies - breastfed them around the clock and so on. They never EVER went to bed at a decent hour and I got very, very little work done. Now that DS1 is 8, for example, I feel that he is far more independent and far less demanding. DS2 is a toddler and still very demanding. So I am hoping that things will continue to get easier as they both get older (!).

Obviously this isn't the case for everyone, though, as niminy pointed out. Having a DC with SN is a challenge that I haven't had to confront. And my sense is that children continue to need you as you get older, just in different ways - you spend less time physically cuddling them and wiping their food off the floor, but more time chauffeuring them around to different activities, hosting play dates, etc.

An engineer (who is very high up the food chain) I met once told me that you should crank up your career when your children are babies and establish yourself, and then when they start school and need more of your feedback you can slow down. She's a woman, but not sure if it makes any difference. What do people think of this advice? I didn't take it, but then I needed to establish also a home language. But in principle this could work?

DH and I have been to Relate this year, and one of the main things the counsellor made us realise is just how bloody difficult and demanding our lives are at the moment. She spent a lot of time complimenting us on how well we are coping. Obviously we are not coping THAT well or we would not have ended up at Relate, but still, it is helpful to remind myself that the stress is not just inside my head: that having two demanding jobs and two small children is inherently very challenging. We are so very time-poor.

I feel less and less guilty about things like paying for a cleaner, or having all the shopping delivered by Internet. Whatever works.

And I also know that in loads of ways I am hugely privileged, in terms of economic status and in terms of having a job that I love and want to do, and having a family that I love and want to spend time with.

Most of the time though I feel one step away from pure chaos.

It seems that there is a line of thought that says if you want to be successful you must do what most men do (or perhaps what capitalism tells you you must do? But let's not bring capitalism into it - it's complicated enough ...) Bollocks to that. I say we change the fucking system. Be outliers if we must, but things are changing slowly, and I'm not going back. Much as I hate her legacy, "the lady's not for turning".

Is that ambition or not? The wrong type of ambition?

And I think things that affect women are more than childcare. I don't know what, but I'm intending to read my book on why women progress so slowly in academia at some point so I might have some understanding ...

I also know women academics who are working full time, partners working full time in a demanding job, with two children, and trying to hold it all together -- and getting tireder and tireder, and having more and more opportunistic infections...

Do you have a hidden camera in my house, niminy?

The only reason I am feeling as cheerful about my life as I am right now is because it's the end of the university term, and I have a couple of precious weeks before the school holidays start. DH and I actually managed to have lunch together this week (gasp).

if women are to succeed, we must have only one child, and marry a husband a socio-economic class below us, who works in a very undemanding, low-prestige field this is not too great a cariacature of successful women I know.

I also know women academics who are working full time, partners working full time in a demanding job, with two children, and trying to hold it all together -- and getting tireder and tireder, and having more and more opportunistic infections...

Great post, thecatfromjapan.

In terms of who we should marry, I would definitely have a better chance of succeeding at academia if I had married someone who worked in an undemanding field, or someone who wanted to be a SAHD. But I was attracted to my DH in the first place because he was so passionate about ideas and so driven. Presumably he was attracted to me for similar reasons (though I'm sure there are moments when he would love to be married to a SAHM instead!).

I think that as feminists, we have to combine pragmatism with a long-term vision for changing the workplace.

I entirely agree thecatfromjapan, I don't really want to follow my own advice! I think you gain a lot from following an unconventional path. And I'm not convinced that if you sent me back 10 years with what I know now, I'd really do anything different. But from where I am now it seems that's what's needed to combine motherhood with academia.

I like rubyanddiamond's "strategic" outline from a pragmatic point of view BUT ...

isn't it kind of wrong that we are now reduced to dreaming of ways to contort ourselves, our dreams, our love, our imagination, our conceptuality to fit ever smaller holes and corners within a system that - damn it! - should be more human-shaped, more woman-shaped, more life-shaped - because that latter is what it excludes, frankly.

AND

isn't this putting the onus on the individual woman to become - frankly - a bit of an instrumental sociopath in key areas of her life, rather on "the system" to change? i remember a book published a while back that suggested that, if women are to succeed, we must have only one child, and marry a husband a socio-economic class below us, who works in a very undemanding, low-prestige field. The question that that prompted was: who, really lives/loves like that?

AND LASTLY

do we want this for our daughters? 'Tis one thing demanding it of ourselves, quite another to wish it forwards for those we love and dream for ...

Mind you, as is soooo obvious, that is all very good advice, rubyand diamond, form a pragmatic point of view. And, since there really isn't going to be any glorious revolution any time soon, probably the only thing to be done.

Wow, X-post with ruby about strategic choices. I can tick off most of the items on your list as things I've done as well!

I agree with dreaming that keeping your foot in as much as possible post-motherhood is important. I am so grateful now that I worked part-time in academia when DC1 was small, even though the salary barely covered the cost of the part-time childcare. It was an investment in the future and now I have a decent job again. Had I taken a break from academia entirely due to motherhood, I wouldn't even have been in the mental headspace to believe in myself and keep applying for jobs.

There are no guarantees though, and it's all such bloody hard work.

at small-unit warfare. Are you in peace and conflict studies or something like that, dreaming?

X-posted with dreamingbohemian

You can interpret Xenia's approach into academia though. It would be: don't take a year off on maternity, get some childcare, get a cleaner, make sure your partner does an equal share, and get back in the trenches and rise up the ladder.

I have tried to follow most (but not all) of this, but I think the things working against women in with kids in academia are much more subtle, and not always easy to see ahead of time, which is what I was trying to convey :)

Very interesting to hear about the experiences of other women/mothers in academia.

Xenia, with all due respect I'm not sure you're in a position to contribute much to this debate, because academia is such a specific profession, and unless you're in it or have a partner in it it's hard to understand the particular challenges. I can tell you why I gave up my (much-coveted) academic job and let my DH keep his though. We had academic posts in different countries, and while that worked for us for a number of years, it was clearly not compatible with having a family. I had a job in an underfunded department; it was a good job but not my dream job. DH on the other hand had a permanent "dream job" in a prestigious and well-funded institution. He loved his job more than I loved mine, so I gave mine up and looked for a new post close to him. I would like to think that had the situation been reversed, he would have done the same for me. Otherwise I would not want to be married to him! I hate the fact that I have joined vast numbers of academic women who have been forced for whatever reason to compromise their careers, but if I had to do it all over again, I don't think I would have chosen any differently. He has made compromises too; he would probably prefer to move back to his country of origin and work as an academic there (and he could probably find a good job there in a heartbeat, as his field is a very popular one at the moment), but I am in a very niche field (that I love) and I would be virtually unemployable in that country. So living in the UK is a compromise that both of us have made.

And yeah, I'm sure the REF is bad for women. Ugh.

TBH I have this fantastic post now, and I'm scared shitless that I won't be able to publish enough to make something of it. I'm going to do my best though. I have more paid childcare than I've ever had before, and I am trying to adopt a newly "selfish" attitude in the workplace that involves saying no to whatever I can say no to and protecting my research time at all costs.

Which doesn't explain why I am currently wasting time hanging out on MN.

There are some fantastic women academics at my institution though, very inspiring. You are amazing, dreaming, to have forged a path at your institution the way you have, depressing as your story about other women dropping out of PhDs is.

I am also trying to be more strategic about the research areas I choose: to move away from 'niche' topics to more mainstream ones. I want to write stuff that people in my field will actually read. For a change (ha!).

I have been reflecting a bit on the 'mistakes' I made that I think will see me leave academia, none too big by themselves, but they all add up

• I didn't choose a 'strategic' PhD topic, it was theoretically interesting but didn't lead to the sort of publications and results that really got me noticed
• I spent some time in industry, which was good for me but also slowed down my publications
• I didn't move post-PhD when I had the chance, so have really been in the same location for too long with no intention of moving now
• I married a man who has a good career of his own and wasn't willing to slow down either, although I should mention that he is completely supportive of my career and does his fair share of childcare runs etc. (someone mentioned that a lot of successful female academics have husbands who have taken a back-seat)
• I'll have 2 babies close together, my choice and I wanted this, but 2 pregnancies, births, maternity leaves will really impact my research
• ill-timed pregnancy/conference combination has made it hard to get to the important conferences
• I live in a place with no family nearby, so am reliant on paid childcare
• I found pregnancy incredibly tiring and hard work, which sadly did have an impact on work

So, in summary, I think if you really want a career in academia and kids you have to be strategic about it from the start. Pick a good subject, get some decent publications behind you, and get some experience in different locations before thinking about kids.

I realise the above sounds a bit depressing, but actually my career's in pretty good shape if I want to work anywhere but academia :)

Prom -- it actually is an interesting question, whether women would be more valued in society after an apocalypse. Certainly a lot of the most male dominated fields will no longer be useful, and as you say being able to grow things and source everything for the household will be pretty damn useful.

Though I guess 'Feminists: Just Wait for the Apocalypse!' isn't much of a slogan.

You can interpret Xenia's approach into academia though. It would be: don't take a year off on maternity, get some childcare, get a cleaner, make sure your partner does an equal share, and get back in the trenches and rise up the ladder.

It's not bad advice, especially if you are thinking long term, because you are likely to eventually get to a point where you have more freedom and flexibility and the wages to provide lots of opportunities for your children (not to be materialistic, but some things do realistically cost money).

That doesn't mean that everyone will want to follow this advice, and I would never judge someone who didn't. But I think it's good for the advice to be thrown out there, as an antidote to the idea that having kids means inevitably having to sacrifice your career a lot.

Prom I guess it depends on what kind of apocalypse we get too

I'm a bit of an expert on small-unit warfare, that might come in handy.