Sigh. I've been deleted and blocked by yet another feminist page on Facebook....

I agree that it is fine to disagree and debate.
And I agree that women are held to a higher standard of agreeableness which is why people get all jowl-flobbly over feminists disagreeing.

I hate to say it, but it could be an internally logical position to be a woman who is anti-what-feminism-is-trying-to-do-now, but pro-what-it-has-already-done. I mean: voting is fine, but it is true that ladies have to be pretty and it is wrong and unseemly to combat this. or something.

I don't actually think this is what is happening though. I think they subconsciously recognise that the patriarchy still holds all the power, the greatest material mileage is in sucking up to them, not feminists; plus, if feminists do actually manage to achieve anything, the benefits cannot reasonably be withheld from unfeminist women, so it's win-win

An anti-gay-marriage gay person is presumably unlikely to get married, but arguably still benefits from the mainstreaming of homosexuality and the reduced hassle in day to day life that is related to the legal acceptance of gay marriage. (s)he may not like this and may feel an awful hypocrite and attempt to demand homophobic treatment in line with his or her moral position ;)

I understand class descriptions as descriptions that define a class. When someone tells me black boys underachieve at school I know they mean the average black boy, not every black boy but a good number of them. Saying men rape strongly implies a lot of men rape when in fact we know very few men in civilised societies rape.

I would also dispute that that men and women are identical except for the penis. Ask yourselves, if women were to suddenly find themselves with fully functional penises, do you think some minority would go out and rape? I don't think so. You might then say, ah, but women have been conditioned to behave differently. So then imagine these women also inherited the patriarchy and were encouraged to be violent and abuse the lesser men folk - would women then become the rapists? Again, I think not.

The republican party in America has many black people as members but they would not support the "affirmative action" model, even though they or their family could benefit from it.

Unions have fought and gained many battles workers rights, that does not stop people being anti union even though the they themselves would not give up the benefits that they enjoy.

I don't think so! He's been married IIRC. No, I meant, lots of people seemed to think he had a point, which I find bizarre.

But then I suppose gay marriage is different as I do know people who object to marriage as a patriarchial construction and therefore don't want gay marriage for that reason. It's not that unusual to find gay people who're anti gay marriage, though, I kept seeing comments about it after he made that speech.

What about Jeremy Irons talking about gay marriage?

Exactly - I think we're expected not to disagree because we're so good at emotional communication and compromise.

of women, obviously

Yep I agree. I also think that there is a very obvious difference between someone asking questions or arguing their corner and trolling. And even if there isn't it can be established pretty swiftly with fairly minimal interaction.

I think there is also a link with disagreements within feminism being seen as negative or avoidable and the role if women as appeasers.

scallops - oh, please don't apologize!

Interesting what you say about your persepective of the thread.

I've been thinking about this sort of thing for a good while. It bothers me that often, disagreements between feminists (or between feminists and other women who don't identify that way but say they would if feminism were different) are presented as entirely negative and avoidable.

I don't see why we shouldn't disagree. Of course at times it will get tedious, but to me 'solidarity' doesn't mean blindly agreeing or not being given the space to question, it means accepting that despite our differences, we have a lot in common that holds us together.

Malenky sorry I didn't get back to you last night - RL got in the way! I agree with what you say about victims of rape seeming very passive. Abuse has been traditionally defined by abusers. Rape it seems is no exception.

Well I saw the thread Annie is talking about and nothing on there would scream at me "ban her" (unless they have deleted her posts too). So I can't see what she said to get banned and that does seem unreasonable.

What kind of thing, Vivienne?
MRD, fair enough, we don't know.

I have nothing to do with feminism because of this kind of thing.

doctrine - going back, but yes, I'd say those two statements you mention are the same type of statement, equally valid to make.

curry - to be fair, I didn't interpret it that way, I saw her as saying she was bewildered, and now so far as I understand, we're having the debate she wanted to have in the first place.

We can't judge what happened in that group unless any of us was in it.

TDoA

think we're agreeing?
Stranger attack is much more likely to be assault rather than rape, and much more likely to be on men from men.

[While yes, I told my daughter to avoid going home with strangers, I also warned my sons]

RAPISTS rape; most of them are men; most are at least known to the person raped, ergo avoiding strangers isn't much good.

I rather liked to "Don't be that guy" campaign

Please substitute "trope" with, err, a better word (group?) as that sounded disrespectful. Apologies.

OMC, as I think you know, the dark and dangerous places trope applies to a very small proportion of rapes.

I don't know what the % of male on male rape that is stranger related is, but I suspect that avoiding prison would keep you safer from male on male rape than avoiding dark and dangerous places.

PQW, really good way of putting it.

PromQueenWithin
The statement "all women are potential rape victims" is logically true but incomplete, as women, men and children are raped.

I should therefore take my own advice and avoid dark and dangerous places... which, of course, I do.

As pointed out elsewhere, most victims of stranger violence are men and so perhaps men should focus on avoiding their own dangers (rather than finger wagging at women), and most importantly NOT BEING RAPISTS.