Sigh. I've been deleted and blocked by yet another feminist page on Facebook....

:) Thank you.

I know you're not a man.

And I didn't think you were lecturing, either.

I'm not a man!

I also apologise if I've been lecturing.

I appreciate that.

I think I'm still going to give this thread a break though, too many men lecturing, and I'm not sure it's helpful to the OP, who is someone I respect a lot. I don't want to get into it endlessly if she's not interested.

MRD didn't think I was lecturing you.

If I was I withdraw unreservedly.
Points to OP.

AnnieLobeseder Sun 16-Jun-13 19:34:44
Sigh. I've been deleted and blocked by yet another feminist page on Facebook for daring to disagree with them on something they've posted.

...this was how ALL MEN think, that ALL MEN search for filth like that

which led to "Men Rape"

Incidentally, which other men have been lecturing?

I feel like scallops.

I love being lectured by men about how they're not sure how helpful I'm being in their crusade to end male violence.

I'm not sure how helpful they're being, but of course, it wouldn't be my place to intervene in an issue that clearly concerns the menz so much more than a mere ladyperson.

ISWYM, PQW!

eccles - so long as you qualify it with 'In Jamaica' the way I've been qualifying with 'under UK law', obviously it is.

How would it not be?

Still not sure that

Women sexually assault

is in anyway helpful to anyone, anymore than Men rape or sexually assault is.

Don't be a rapist or support those who are is probably a message I'll keep sharing, sorry if that's too comfortable fluffy bunnikins for you.

In Jamaica, only women can commit infanticide. Is the phrase "women commit infanticide" valid?

There is absolutely no logic to your post, btw, sorry.

Under Victorian law, only men could commit sodomy (still true, actually).

'Men commit sodomy' is perfectly accurate - women don't.

Likewise 'women have vaginal orgasms' doesn't mean all women do, but that men don't.

Massive crosspost with everybody.

I'm out of here. I am sick of arguing that black isn't white with a bunch of men who think they know what's best for me. If I want that I can go and speak to my boss.

No, they're not misleading in the same way, garlic.

Come on. Honestly, are you not reading, or disagreeing but feeling it doesn't matter to take issue, just to refute?

You're not normally like this.

It does address the issue that feminists want to address. Which is that men have used rape as a tool for oppressing women.

Upthread is LeithLurker demanding that feminists shouldn't use rape politically yet that is what men have been doing for centuries.

We have to be able to name our oppressors and define what they do to us.

There is no equivalent comparison with Women are... because women don't oppress men.

And the whole UK thing. Do you really believe that there aren't gangs of white men in the UK exploiting and raping through prositution women and girls? Really? Because you are wrong.

Oh and it isn't fucking grooming.

Considering we're in this conversation thanks to the statement "men rape", it seems odd that we are still exhibiting adverse reactions to statements that "Pakistanis do X" and "Women do Y". All of these statements are misleading in the same way.

The sole difference is that only men can rape under UK law, whereas other nationalities can systematically abuse girls and other genders can beat children. The statement "men rape" has been justified by its gender exclusivity. This exclusivity only exists, however, by virtue of the British statute book. The defence is invalid in other countries with different laws, since it depends on a legal definition of rape. How can "men rape" be an acceptable statement in the UK but not in Canada?

In Victorian times, UK law said only men could be homosexual. Would it be true to say, therefore, that "Victorian men were gay"?

I'm giving up on this now, anyhow (FWR heaves sigh of relief,) as I feel I'm trying to pitch logic against emotion. That rarely works.

Cross post.

Wahey. Yes, you've got it.

Did you not read my copious 'under UK law' disclaimers?

I also said upthread that rape is different in consequences from sexual assualt.

Your point makes no sense. They're not comparable statements. Honestly, this has been gone over and over.

To be brutally honest, I can't help feeling that if you believe a statement is 'not helpful', it's probably a reasonable sign it's doing it's job. These statements aren't meant to be comfortable fluffy bunnikins for you.

MalenkyRusskyDrakonchik

I think doctrine's comparison to 'women give birth' is the best way of thinking about it though. Or 'women have abortions; men use condoms'. It doesn't mean all women give birth and have abortions. Just that women are the gender who do it.

Ah.
Men rape or sexually assault in the UK
Women sexually assault in the UK

Got you.

Ah, OK it's the summaries - no, as stated, I understood and nicked for upthread I don't know if it's true or not.

As with your pointer to my UK bias, I'd point to yours - women rape too elsewhere in the world.

My point was rather that we all bristle about Pakistani groups being groomers - it being untrue that Pakistani men groom children. The vastest majority don't.

It's therefore not all that surprising that some people find "Men rape" a facile simplification.

Similarly, it's quite likely that the most offended by the statement up thread would be Pakistani men - "Men rape" doesn't offend me, but it's not helpful and doesn't address the issue...

I don't think any of us are denying that those prosecuted were mainly of Pakistani heritage. We are saying that it isn't the whole picture.

"The overall statistics give the lie to such claims. Greater Manchester Police, in whose area the offences took place, has declared that 95 per cent of the men on its sex offenders register are white. Just five per cent are Asian. But things do look different when the focus is narrowed to crimes involving groups of men grooming girls on the street. In 18 child sexual exploitation trials since 1997 ? in Derby, Leeds, Blackpool, Blackburn, Rotherham, Sheffield, Rochdale, Oldham and Birmingham ? relating to the on-street grooming of girls aged 11 to 16 by two or more men, most of those convicted were of Pakistani heritage."

No worries! Easily done.

That's the reason they're different kinds of statements. If you're talking about recent cases, saying 'The pakistani men groomed children' is accurate. If you're talking about the rape of children as a practice, you'd not say that, because (sadly) all sorts of people can and do rape children.

In the other situation, under UK law, only men rape.

I think doctrine's comparison to 'women give birth' is the best way of thinking about it though. Or 'women have abortions; men use condoms'. It doesn't mean all women give birth and have abortions. Just that women are the gender who do it.

scallops, really sorry, I take your point, you're completely right.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.thelizlibrary.org/site-index/site-index-frame.html#soulwww.thelizlibrary.org/liz/statistics.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">child battery by a fellow fan of statistical rectitude

Are you certain you're not thinking only of the UK, and recent prosecuted cases?

No, I was thinking of exactly that. Sorry if I've misunderstood.