Feminism for Dummies.

Can you explain the pension difference? Stonewall doesn't seem to have anything to say about it:
www.stonewall.org.uk/at_home/civil_partnership/2620.asp

As for foreign countries, you might as well say "The law discriminates against women" and then if anyone asks for details, say that in Saudi Arabia a woman can't legally drive a car. Foreign countries may well do some awful things but if we want to talk about them, it's understood that they're out of our control. Unless we make it clear, I think we mostly assume we're talking about the UK.

There was a question raised in Parliament about civil partnerships and pensions, and I think the issue there was that if heterosexuals could have "civil partnerships" as an alternative name for "marriage", enough people would do it that there would be some serious amount more paid out in the form of pensions to partners of people who had died. But that's really recognizing that in the absence of a legal contract, people may be worse off.

newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47817000/gif/_47817012_parliament_gender_466.gif

thats a good point wilson, and if you wanted to move with your partner to another country you might not be able to get a spousal visa for your partner.

No, actually, it isn't. It doesn't give the same pension rights and it isn't recognised in every country.

more info

If you want matriarchy to be declared and women "shit on men for a few thousand years" I just hope you are not white because by your theory all white people should be put into slavery for a few hundred years to make up for our past.

I never said I wanted that I said it would make things "equal" as we are forever told to dare not want more than equal, by the very men who are currently enjoying the privilege of being more than equal. The fact that you are "all for equality" and see your wife and other women as equals doesn't matter. You are not every male on the planet. Your wife is not your equal in society.

The very fact that you feel totally within your right to come on to a female centric forum that discusses feminism and women's rights and assume you deserve to be the center of our discussion and spoon fed ideology while telling women what they are or not allowed to want "more than equal" while enjoying it yourself is the epitome of privilege. I don't want a matriarchy but if I did why would that be so wrong? Men currently enjoy living in a patriarchy wouldn't i be fair for a woman to want the same?

Am I white? yes I am, have I benefited from my whiteness in society? Absolutely I have, which is why I don't feel it is my place to go in to forums for minorities discussing race and improving their lot just to tell them I hope you don't want more than equality. I hope you don't want what I have while insisting they then explain it all to me while refusing to do any research myself first.

And if I did that I would certainly not expect to tell them off for the way they spoke to me.

I do go on forums for people of color but I don't post, I find it interesting and I want to be an ally, but I also realize that while I have much to learn that white voices are more than represented everywhere else. It isn't my place to tell people how it's done. or how it should be done especially while enjoying my privilege.

You never responded to my question, do you call out all types of sexism? So if your colleague in the next desk calls a woman a girl, or a bird, or makes an inappropriate comment good or bad about a woman's looks. Do you speak up? Do you write letters to advertising companies who insist that men are the only ones who drive cars and women are the only ones who clean houses?

Do you protest in favor of women's reproductive rights? Are you in the UK do you realize that women in NI don't have acceptable abortion rights?

If you aren't doing all of those things being an ally why are you here now?

it's obvious I am defensive

Well, don't be, why should we expect you to be defensive but all be forced and expected to be polite in response.

you are obviously very bitter

well yes, maybe I am. Making a 1/3rd less what a man makes for doing the same job and realizing that because you live in a family of women that statistically several of them have been raped (even more than you already know to have been raped) and that because you have decided to be a sahp you are basically a non entity in society will do that to you.

Why not start with a forum for men that teaches about being an ally about understanding feminism?

goodmenproject.com/

WilsonFrickett said this:
"But civil partnerships and marriage are not the same thing, culturally or legally."

In fact a civil partnership is legally the same as marriage. It's interesting that such a simple thing is so difficult to believe, and maybe it's proof that the other part of the sentencethat they aren't the same "culturally"is actually correct. Even if they're the same, we just can't bring ourselves to accept it.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_partnership_in_the_United_Kingdom

Yet you've still ended up in the position that you earn most of the money, or have the greater earning potential, thus now limiting your choices to be a SAHD. Because the patriarchy is at heart a capitalist club for men - it's influenced you without your choices, maybe even without you knowing it.

Anyway I must get on with some work!

And to re-iterate, the patriarchy is bad for men too! All sexism diminishes men and boys. On your other thread, you are talking about your domestic set-up (sorry, I know it is bad form on MN to carry info from one thread to another) - what you need to dig really deep and see is that the patriarchy has influenced your choices. You say your wife has 'always wanted' to be a SAHM - you could have 'always wanted' to be a SAHD too, but it is not an option young men are ever able to explore in our current culture.

Well OK, let's take the example of gay marriage.

Some people say: well, gay people have civil partnerships now, that's equal isn't it? After all, marriage is for a man and a woman to procreate children, so I don't think that's something that they would even want. In my eyes civil partnerships are equal to marriage, just different.

But civil partnerships and marriage are not the same thing, culturally or legally. So just because someone thinks they are the same, doesn't make it so - that's viewing equality through a lens of privilege.

So with the patriarchy, which (massively simplifying here) sees every 'gain' for women as a 'loss' for men - that's no basis for equality, is it? I don't want to share white male privilege - I want it to not exist. Therefore I don't want equality on existing terms, ie equality within the patriarchy.

Great post Wilson.

Can I ask, how do you view women who are caught up in patriarchy and seem to want it to continue?

I've been challenged on this before on MN but I also believe that you just cannot take a Western-centric view of feminism. In our country it's not impossible to not be that hassled about the patriarchy. We have legal rights. Many young women don't see the need for feminism (until they have children usually, but that's a different thread). I absolutely see that a wee tweak here and a wee change there could make 'equalism under the patriarchy' seem like an achievable objective.

But that would be false, because it would be achieving equality under someone else's terms, which can never be true equality (see the 'same but different arguments about gay marriage). It would also deny they experiences of millions and millions of women who are completely and utterly fucked by patriarchy. Women who don't get to go to school. Who don't get to own property. Who don't get to leave the house unless they're accompanied by a man. Who have their sexual organs cut out.

And that is why feminism has to be a bigger movement than 'I'm alright Jill and if we just sort out the number of women in boardrooms we'll all just trip along nicely together.' Because these women can't wait.

I want liberation from patriarchy interesting as it depends on your view of the patriarchy. Most feminists just view it as men whereas I view it as a class issue first and foremost. The patriarchy are so happy that men's rights and feminism are at each others throats because those who are really privileged both male and female just carry on because no one is challenging them. And we now know how people in power that are making their friends rich whilst turning people against those that are most vulnerable.

So let people fight over rights while the really privilege gets stronger and more entrenched. As many people point out many men suffer under the patriarchy but rather than talk and reach compromise on both sides we see entrenched views that will block any changes to help those least privileged.

Thanks Basil.

"Can I ask, how do you view women who are caught up in patriarchy and seem to want it to continue?"

I view them as deluded.

No, not really, I understand the need to rationalise and make sense of the world and believe that the world is essentially a good, manageable place which just needs a few tweaks here or there to make it a fairer place.
If you view the changes needed to the way all societies are run as so basic and radical as radical feminists do, then the task of making society decent becomes much vaster and much less within grasp and that's bloody depressing.

I can see why women want to hang on to the idea that our liberation can be achieved in a much easier way than a root and branch revolution. But I don't think it can. Any progress we make within a patriarchy is only ever temporary, just as any progress made by any marginalised groups within any oppressive system, is temporary - the ruling class is still there waiting to take back what they conceded when it was tactically necessary for them to maintain their position. Hence the destruction of the welfare state now the capitalists can afford it, hence the backlash against women's rights as soon as men realise they've lost a bit of privilege and are in danger of losing more.

The idea that once you've gained rights, you can just sit there and trust that they'll be your's forever within the system that took those rights from you in the first place, is so wrong-headed and naieve IMO - just look at the restriction of abortion rights taking place in the USA as men fight back against Roe vs. Wade, just look at the re-casting of sexual liberation as women being fuck-toys, just look at the increasing policing of women's bodies in pregnancy - the way oppressive classes will claw back the concessions they give when the time is right, is hydra-headed and never-ending and that's why a few tweaks within the system here and there, is just not a long-term solution. The system that produced the injustice in the first place, can't provide the solution to the injustice IMO.

"And am I being overly simplistic to think that true equality would render a patriarchal system useless anyway?"

I think your concepts are arse about elbow. True equality cannot happen in a patriarchal system, that's why feminists want to get rid of patriarchy. Equality will come when patriarchy no longer exists, until that time all that women can achieve is a grudging toleration of our presence in a man-made world, on terms set by men.

Hi there mr arsenal

Once again, if you look across mumsnet, threads of the "all men are crap" variety tend to have a lot of posters saying, "no, though the person you are discussing might well be." There's usually several FWR regulars amongst those posters.

OP, on the thread you complain of, I think only one post was deleted as a personal attack. Swearing is an integral part of mumsnet across the boards and a FFS or whatever is par for the course. If you would rather swearing wasn't allowed, I think there are some forums where it's banned.

I thought this was a new campaign. You know; Feminism for Dummies - be free from the shackles of your child's mouth.
Stand up and fight against unnecessary comfort feeding!
Fight the patriarchy!

*THAN

To add, don't ever feel the need to walk on egg shells.

OP I sort of understand your point, that this place seems hostile if you don't go or disagree with the general consensus, but that's what happens in most forums anyway.
This forum isn't meant to promote (best foot forward) feminism, but to discuss/debate matters that people are very passionate about.

By "Best foot forward" I mean you'll find some people on here dislike men but you will not find such in "official" feminist publications.

I would say this area is MORE of a rant page 'look what I found..' and people discuss the issue THAT an area to educate yourself on feminism.