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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism for Dummies.

209 replies

Ilovemyself · 20/05/2013 20:45

Ok. Here goes.

Apologies if I have offended anyone with my posts since I started using the site. I certainly didn't mean to.

I am all for equality, be it based on sex, race, sexuality, or whatever subculture you area member of.

I have been surprised at the level of vitriol aimed at me because of my (rather poorly worded )comments.

I understand that in every fight for equality there will be those for who the fight is an ever consuming thing. And there will also be those who have been down trodden for so long they will snap at the slightest thing against them. And that there will be those who feel that because they have been oppressed for so long it is their right to be in a dominant position.

For those that want to tip the balance in the opposite direction, I will always disagree. Equality is what we should aim for in all walks of life. These are those who I referred to when I said taking things too far - for promoting something other than equality.

But for the other groups, should I walk on eggshells for fear of offending them, or should say my piece, apologise if I offend, and carry on.

Or am I completely wrong in viewing feminism as a fight for equality when it is actually a fight for women to be in a dominant position over men.

I hope I get some answers here - I certainly don't want a repeat of the last 24 hours. Thanks all.

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PromQueenWithin · 21/05/2013 16:11

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sunshine401 · 21/05/2013 16:10

prejudiced against what?

PromQueenWithin · 21/05/2013 16:07

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Blistory · 21/05/2013 16:06

Ilovemyself,

Ok, so this isn?t going as well as was hoped but never mind, you?re still here and claiming to be interested so I?ll try and help out.

I think we need to go back to the basics before we get into feminist theory because if you don?t know why feminism still exists today, there?s no point in getting into the nuances of it all.

I?m pissed off and angry but you have to understand that the frustration isn?t aimed at you as an individual man but at a society that is largely controlled by men to the detriment of women and that the injustice is worldwide. All the little injustices that feminists are accused of getting their knickers in a twist over all accumulate and I get worked up about them because they are indicative of the view that women are viewed and consequently treated.

Think about it, I don?t know how life is for someone in a wheelchair so I might think well, you?ve got the legal rights to accessible facilities, you have a chair, it?s tough but not really all that much of an issue. I don?t have to consider that someone in a wheelchair can?t just get up and go out for the day. I do it without any planning so I might just assume that they do as well. I don?t really think that opening a door might be an issue, I don?t really think that they might be invisible and ignored. It?s not really a problem to me that someone in a wheelchair might find it really difficult to find a life partner. I don?t need to consider that in my day to day life. I have however had to convert my workplace to ensure that it complies with the DDA and at expense to me and yet I?ve never had someone with a wheelchair come into my premises. Maybe if I stopped to think about it, the reason why they haven?t come in is because we were previously unaccessible. It would be easy for me to think that the DDA is in force, they have protective legislation in place so what?s the problem.

Now, I?m not comparing wheelchair use to being a woman but it?s something that most people can easily comprehend. And when you understand how tough life can be for someone in a wheelchair, you don?t think ?but what about me ? I don?t have a fancy automatic door?, a normal human being would just be pleased that life is being made just that little bit easier for them. Feminism acknowledges the numerous ways in which women, as a biological group, are disadvantaged and is then confronted with men and other women who react badly to having those facts pointed out to them. The tired old argument is that the equality legislation is in place so what more do we want ?

What feminism wants is to do away itself. It want to be unnecessary but it hasn?t yet achieved that.

Feminism recognises that life can be awful for some men, that it can be even worse for some men than for some women but generally, it focuses on the issues of women. If we could address those issues, then the lives of many men would improve. It?s not about improving the lives of women at the expense of men, it?s about ensuring that from birth, women have the same rights and opportunities that men have. In the UK some of those issues may seem trite, in other parts of the world , it?s about the right to life.

As a man, and particularly in the UK, and especially so if you?re a white, educated, middle class man, you start life with many unseen advantages. You are likely to be told from birth that you?re strong, that you?re brave, that your little sister is somehow more fragile and needs looked after. You?re encouraged to be a protector of the weak and the innocent ? that would be the girls and women in your life. You?re encouraged to be physical, you?re allowed to get dirty and climb trees, you can be loud and bolshy and that?s ok. Now think of the different message that society, not necessarily you, sends to girls.

So you grow up. You?re encouraged to take science classes. The older you get, the more likely your teachers are to be male. You?ll have visited the doctors and chances are that the doctor is male and the nurse female. You might be watching the news and may not even have noticed that the Prime Minister is male, more importantly, most of his Cabinet is male. It may not have occurred to you that most business leaders interviewed are male. Maybe if you?re younger you might not even have noticed that the lead in cartoons is invariably male. Obviously there are exceptions but do you see where I?m going with this ? as a young boy turning into a young man, you have plenty of male examples. You?re seeing men in important roles everywhere.

Let?s turn to your home life. Growing up, most boys will have seen their mothers responsible for the majority of childcare and household tasks while Daddy works at the very important office which affords the family the nice things in life. So what does Mummy do ? well, she cleans the toilet or does the school run. Maybe your sisters are taught how to iron or how to cook while you boys do the physical tasks.

And you?re not even a man yet. Now think about what a teenage girl has gone through, where are her positive examples ? What is she expected to think her role in society is ? Now bear in mind that we?re talking about the basic stuff, not the sexual pressures, the fear of rape, the constant verbal and low level physical abuse that women face once they enter puberty. And again, so far we?re talking about nice, middle class UK.

If you?re with me so far and having a little bit of a lightbulb moment, let me know and I?ll get to the real bones of it.

sunshine401 · 21/05/2013 16:01

Yes but that happens to men,children and animals to. Are women more important ?? Of course not.
We should fight to stop violence to all.

WilsonFrickett · 21/05/2013 16:00

No you are right sunshine - it's not all about women, men have to change too.

Prom - Jesus wept Sad

PromQueenWithin · 21/05/2013 16:00

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PromQueenWithin · 21/05/2013 15:59

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sunshine401 · 21/05/2013 15:59

Yes People have to change but it is not all about women.

WilsonFrickett · 21/05/2013 15:58

And how do you propose to reach this equal society sunshine? Do you think it will happen by magic or do you think people will have to take action? Discuss things? Change?

As someone who has contributed several posts on this thread I'm disappointed you think feminism is a bitter load of rubbish. I don't see much bitterness here.

::skips back to work::

sunshine401 · 21/05/2013 15:53

These "Feminism" threads have really put me right off any idea of wanting to class myself as one.
I agree in equal rights for all not just a certain sex. The more so called "Feminists" conversations I read , the more I think it just a bitter load of rubbish. Yes we need an equal society but equal means equal not all for us women.

PromQueenWithin · 21/05/2013 15:39

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PromQueenWithin · 21/05/2013 15:36

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Ilovemyself · 21/05/2013 15:33

Hi promqeenfromwithin

No I haven't taken offence. And I was not deliberately trying to be confrontational despite what some may think.

I was taken back by the rudeness and swearing. If I was taken incorrectly there was comment to say I was wrong or out of order. It was swearing and abuse from the word go.

I have always used reasoned argument not abuse to win arguments and I really didn't think that the people here would be any different!.

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PromQueenWithin · 21/05/2013 15:32

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PromQueenWithin · 21/05/2013 15:23

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Ilovemyself · 21/05/2013 15:10

What a condescending reply. Well bow out then. I will continue to ask questions and I hope the more helpful that have given me useful comments will continue to do so.

Is it wrong to want to say you are the dad on a parenting website that is predominantly female. I did it as I DIDNT want to be looked at as someone I wasn't - pretending to be a mother rather than a father. But then I guess you will always look for the bad in everyone.

Oh, and I have signed onto the mailing list for the goodmenproject as well. But then I suppose that you think I am not telling the truth there either!

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HullMum · 21/05/2013 14:58

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Ilovemyself · 21/05/2013 14:42

Hullmum - so you think I am troll? Go and read the post I put about an issue with my twin daughter. If I was a troll would I put that.

I guess you don't believe what I have said about my experience of sexism in the work place. Well fine, you are entitled not to believe me. But I know what happened and that I will always stand my ground in those situations. And yes, i did get in a physical fight with my business partner. And he still won as he was the major share holder.

I may as well give up on trying to find out more. The more I ask the more I get flamed. Perhaps an earlier poster was right. I should just stick to the other forums on here where people actually want to help rather than argue.

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HullMum · 21/05/2013 14:31

And I have actually got in a physical fight over the with a business partner over the appointment of a female where his reason for choosing her was she was " a pretty little blonde" whereas I hadn't even thought about looks, just who was most suited to the job.

Hmm
HullMum · 21/05/2013 14:30

I think the fact that you deliberately ignored on 2 occasions every comment I made about what you could be doing to help women in the patriarchy you live in now, to harp on about a matriarchy which could never happen means the other posters will see you for what you are too.

So don't get too excited, we've had better trolls trying to take discussion away from where it should be

Ilovemyself · 21/05/2013 14:28

Sorry, in response to your question, no I don't email or write to organisations I deem sexist. I hadn't even thought of that.

But yes, I have stood up to male colleagues about their comments about woman and have said that they are unacceptable. I have been to my HR manager when my MD made a comment that he would double someone's bonus if they slept with a female member of staff at the Christmas party. And I have actually got in a physical fight over the with a business partner over the appointment of a female where his reason for choosing her was she was " a pretty little blonde" whereas I hadn't even thought about looks, just who was most suited to the job.

Does that answer that question

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Ilovemyself · 21/05/2013 14:23

I am glad you give up hull mum. It might mean some of the more helpful people have a chance to assist.

I had no more say in my gender at birth than you did. If I had asked the same questions as a women would you have been so rude? I doubt it.

Shall I give up myself? No, because I do believe equality matters

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HullMum · 21/05/2013 14:19

oh and if you wanted to look less like a troll you would respond to any of my post, not just whine.

HullMum · 21/05/2013 14:18

[gives up]