Feminism for Dummies.

arsenal I don't think you know anything about evolutionary theory rather than evolutionary psychobabble. There is not one single theory of evolution which arises from natural selection which is why I'm interested in what JoTheHot was saying about phylogenetic analysis.

As for weak men's genes dying out, if that were true, the world would be populated with He-Men.

Only 20% of men throughout history of mankind managed to have children.

Really? Seems a very low figure. How do they know?

I must say I'm not a big fan of evo-psych being brought into feminist conversations. I don't think it's very relevant.

Loved blistory's posts though.

Flora Females are weaker than males because males are selected to keep other males away from their mates.
Males are physically stronger than females because of evolution.

Males are/were selected MAINLY because of strength:
Look at a thread about 'why i married my Dh...' and you'll find a lot of reference to strong arms, big shoulder.
Most women prefer their partners to be taller.
Most women are attracted to men with high levels of testosterone especially around ovulation.
Only 20% of men throughout history of mankind managed to have children.

If you were a weak man, your genes died out.

HoTheHot There is already tons of irrefutable evidence that gender is an interaction between nature and nurture. The most concise argument comes from a phylogenetic analysis of mammals.

Can you point to a paper or article discussing this? I assume you do mean gender rather than sex.

Females are weaker than males because males are selected to keep other males away from their mates.

What's the evidence for this?

I honestly don't give a shit if my views are different from 'the movement'. I haven't been called upon to explain 'the movement's' beliefs, I have been asked to discuss mine. The movement is not the boss of me, neither is the patriarchy.

And there is more than one version of feminism on mn and indeed on this thread I think. But as I say, I'm not concerned about singularity - to me feminism is a broad church.

Blistory thank you for your fantastic posts.

And an exploration of feminism should include a representative selection of feminist theories, not an undue emphasis on the poster's own views. In particular, when those views are not widely held within the movement.

Females are weaker than males because males are selected to keep other males away from their mates. Differences in strength in humans are relatively minor, so selection for mate guarding is presumably quite weak in our species. Female insects and fish are often larger than males because they lay large broods and reproductive success is correlated with body size. In humans fertility is not a simple correlate of body size, so women have not been selected to be larger than men.

I would like to applaud the posters who are so calmly and clearly responding to the op.

It's a bit unfair to come on a thread entitled 'Feminism for Dummies' and have the posts above. If you're going to do the whole 'burn the radfems at the stake' thing, could you start your own thread please ?

Regardless of the way in which the thread started, the intent was that it was a beginning point for the exploration of feminism as a concept by someone who doesn't understand it and genuinely doesn't see why it's needed.

JoTheHot wrote - "Radical feminists are fixated on the nebulous malevolent patriarchy. The vast vast majority of people who identify themselves as feminists are not ."

The concept of patriarchy is not restricted to radical feminism, or even to feminism.

Many, probably most, branches of feminism recognise patriarchy and patriarchal values as the problem. The difference between the different branches of feminism is in how patriarchal values should be opposed. Radical feminism seeks to remove patriarchy. Other branches of feminism seek to modify patriarchy.

Not wanting to derail so I bid you farewell dearest feminist's of mn :)

That mammals are not influenced by culture is exactly the point of a phylogenetic comparison. Mammals show pronounced sex differences without culture, so these differences are genetic. Humans evolved with the same darwinian pressures as other mammals and so parsimony suggests gender differences are genetic in humans as well. Otherwise you're arguing that all the sex differences we see in our relatives have for some reason disappeared in our lineage, despite the fact that we are still exposed to the same selection pressures to maintain them.

From a theoretical stand-point it's pretty much impossible to construct a scenario in which anisogamy does not produce genetically-based behavioural differences between the sexes.

What was the word I took out of context?

Did you change your name OP?

You do not need twin studies. There is already tons of irrefutable evidence that gender is an interaction between nature and nurture. The most concise argument comes from a phylogenetic analysis of mammals.

I have no convictions about you're convictions. I just take you at your word.

Part 2 for Ilovemyself

So we?re entering the teen years.

You?re probably still not really interested in having a girlfriend but might be getting curious about female bodies. That?s ok , there?s plenty around to educate you. You might even hide behind the bike sheds and have a giggle with your mates at the Page 3 you?ve found or the dirty magazine that was hidden under your brother?s mattress. Perhaps you find yourself looking at girls with a bit more interest. Maybe the billboard ads, or magazine ads with provocative poses are catching your eye. Maybe there?s talk about the girl who puts it about a bit. Maybe you?ve seen a dirty video or two but you?re primarily still interested in your mates and what?s happening to your own body. There?s maybe the odd arousal in public that you?re embarrassed by but generally all that is still to come.

Let?s turn to your sister. She?s hitting puberty and has started to develop. She can?t hide the fact that she?s growing breasts and has started to wear a bra. As she walks through the playground, the boys behind the bikeshed are giggling and looking at her chest. She feels a bit flustered, a bit intimidated. She notices that older boys and men are looking at her chest, sometimes it?s a little bit scary. She doesn?t understand why she feels like this as she?s surrounded by posters and adverts everywhere where women are showing off their breasts with no concerns at all. But then, maybe she doesn?t look like them. If that?s the normal portrayal of women, there must be something wrong with her as she doesn?t look like that. So maybe she?ll try some makeup. Maybe she can hide behind that and make herself look like the women in the ads. Maybe she?ll diet so she can be skinny. Then to her horror she notices that no one else has hair on their legs. Something else she has to do. But conversely the more she does all that, the more attention she seems to attract.

In trying to fit in and look like a normal woman, men have suddenly taken it as a sign that she?s mature and sexually available. She starts getting wolf whistles as she walks home, someone grabbed her bum on the bus. She?s too intimidated to do or say anything so she keeps quiet but she?s started to internalise the message that men are entitled to look at her, that they consider themselves to have access to her whether she wants it or not.

Now combine the teenage years with the messages that you both received in childhood and you?ll hopefully start to see where things are falling apart. By your teen years, you?ll already have been told so frequently and in small ways that women are somehow ?other? that they are ?less? . You will have internalised that and won?t be aware of it ? neither are young women. Boys are told that it?s a negative to be feminine as if it?s one of the worst insults that can be handed to a man.

Feminism does not agree on why this occurs ? maybe the system has been designed that way, maybe it?s to do with historic economic necessity, maybe it?s caused in part by male dominated religions. There?s plenty of theory out there but we?re sticking to the everyday stuff that happens just to give you an understanding of why women are pissed off.

I could go on for hours through the life of an average woman and explain about career expectations, discrimination in the workplace, being, on the whole, expected to be responsible for the home and the childcare, the expectations that I will earn less, the fact that I stand a 1 in 4 chance of being raped. The fact that I will be judged for looking inadequate if I don?t wear make up, dye my hair ? I will never be allowed simply to look like me. And remember that women are buying into this as well.

Do you want part 3 ?

In fact Blistory at 16.06 has just given an outstanding example of feminists being aware of the rights (or lack of) of other groups......

sunshine: I think feminists are only too aware of the fact that all sorts of people have fewer rights than others. To be born having fewer rights makes us more conscious of others in under privileged positions.

But this is the feminism thread. It does what it says on the tin.

No everyone does not have the same rights, but everyone should have the same rights.

Women and Men cannot by law be physically hurt. If you are you can get whoever caused the hurt upon charges.
Children however can by law be physically hurt (although in limitation smacked without leaving a mark. Therefore Men and Women have more rights over the children we are meant to care for.
Why? because we live in an unequal society. The fight for equal rights should be about all equal rights not just equal rights for one group of people.
I as a women fully believe in my rights and all women's rights but it does not just end there. I believe in children,men,homosexual,animal and any other kind of right you can think of. Equality.

But sunshine as a woman in the UK you may have more or less the same rights as a man, but you have less privilege. And in general, in the world, men have more rights than women. Everyone does not have the same rights. So how can it not be about women?

It's just not helpful to keep conflating feminism with radical feminism. Feminism is about promoting women's interests, end of. Radical feminists are fixated on the nebulous malevolent patriarchy. The vast vast majority of people who identify themselves as feminists are not .

I realise a vociferous hard-core of radical feminists dominates this corner of MN, and I'm fine with that. We all find comfort in setting the world to rights within a group of like-minded people, but please stop re-defining feminism.

The comment that people asking for evidence are 'prattling' says so much. Who needs evidence when you already know you're right.

Well I am a women have been for the last 43 years.
I understand we need an equal society. However at the moment the women declaring themselves as Feminists are making it to be all about women. It is not, well I do not think it is.
Then we have the arguments on here which are awful, women slagging each other off. "Your not a feminists blah blah" The whole abortion thread the other day was equally awful. Stating you "couldn't be a Feminist if you thought it was wrong to let a mother kill a full term baby.
Rights are rights but not for a certain group of people everyone should have the same rights.
I have rights
My children have rights
My husband has rights
My pets have rights